Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.
Regardless, it's about time Christians stop subjecting God's words to the letters of Paul.
What's the definition of "Apostle" again?
This is interesting.
That greek word is different than other places for "reward/wages" use in the NT. It appears to be akin to the rations of soldiers according to a lexicon.
Young) Romans 6:23 for the wages/oywnia <3800> of the sin [is] death, and the gift of God [is] life age-during in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Strong's Number G3800 matches the Greek ὀψώνιον (opsōnion), which occurs 4 times in 4 verses in the Greek concordance of the KJV
3800. opsonion neuter of a presumed derivative of the same as 3795; rations for a soldier, i.e. (by extension) his stipend or pay:-- wages.
3795. opsarion op-sar'-ee-on neuter of a presumed derivative of the base of 3702; a relish to other food (as if cooked sauce), i.e. (specially), fish (presumably salted and dried as a condiment):--fish.
Revelation 22:12 And behold!, I am coming swiftly and the wages/misqoV <3408> of Me with Me, to render to each as the work is of Him
[Reve 22:12]
NKJV) Revelation 22:12 " And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward/misqoV <3408> [is] with Me, to give to every one according to his work.
Strong's Number G3408 matches the Greek μισθός (misthos), which occurs 29 times in 28 verses in the Greek concordance of the KJV
AV reward 24, hire 3, wages 2
We are eternal beings within a physical body- We were born, yes, but we existed prior to our birth.
This is not to say that reincarnation or any other such form of hooey is true; merely that Scripture states we were known prior to conception. We were birthed into temporary physical bodies, but we are eternal beings.
I will tweak the definition of eternal only slightly- We, our spirits, have no known beginning but we will exist without end.
God is not wrong, He is not a liar, nor is He mistaken. You are mistaken. The wages of sin is death, not eternal torment. The lake of fire is the second death, not eternal torment.What do you and I think of when we think of death? A ceasing to exist? A lack of presence? How about separation?
So then, is it likely that as I suggested earlier, those who advocate annihilation are not seeing what is being said here properly?
It boils down to this: Either God is a liar, or He is not. If He is, what are we doing? If He is not, then we are wrong.
God is not wrong, He is not a liar, nor is He mistaken. You are mistaken. The wages of sin is death, not eternal torment. The lake of fire is the second death, not eternal torment.
Because it agrees with the rest of scripture.So let me ask you this question: What makes you believe that the final judgment constitutes the "wages of sin?"
Because it agrees with the rest of scripture.
Peter says the false teachers will meet destruction.
John says eternal life is only in Christ, those outside of Christ will not see eternal life.
John also says those who believe in Christ will not perish, but those who reject Him will.
The author of The Apocalypse of John says that they will be cast into the Lake of Fire, Which Is The Second Death.
Jesus said that He would return to give eternal life, or to give judgment. We know from all of scripture that God's judgment results in death.
It's really the totality of scripture which clinches this.
God is not wrong, He is not a liar, nor is He mistaken. You are mistaken. The wages of sin is death, not eternal torment. The lake of fire is the second death, not eternal torment.
The wages of sin is death.That is a lot of winding around to reach a conclusion not spoken to directly in any fashion or form.
I've got my study to do, then I'll be back to revisit this discussion a little later.
Romans 6:23 says the wages of sin is death. Not the wages of sin is soul death and eternal torment of the spirit.The poll is a false dichotomy. The wages of sin is soul death and eternal torment of the spirit. It is not one or the other.
Wow, what a mess.John 3:16
　
The letter killeth, that is why Gods Word tells us to seek, ask and knock.
　
Let us look a little closer at this awesome verse especially the Strongs Concordances reference <9999 >, it is worse then 666.
(KJV) John 3 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:15 That whosoever believeth in him should (not perish,) should be omitted), but have eternal life.16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that (whosoever, should be "all") (believeth, should be that "all believing") in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
The following are a direct quote from Strongs Concordance.
John 3:15
<9999 > should
<9999 > not
<9999 > perish,
<9999 > but
NT:9999
9999 inserted word (x);
This word was added by the translators for better readability in the English. There is no actual word in the Hebrew/Greek text. The word may be displayed in italics, or in parentheses or other brackets, to indicate that it is not in the original text.
　
Now we will look at a passage in the New Testament; viz., that precious declaration in John 3:16,
"God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son," etc. We will take into consideration verses 14-17 inclusive; first I will clear up several points of obscurity and error and then give the rendering as it should be.
In verse 15 the words "not perish but" should be omitted; according to the best authorities they have been interpolated, probably from the following verse; they are left out from the New Version.
Strong's Whosoever 3956 pas (pas);including all the forms of declension; apparently a primary word; all, any, every, the whole: KJV-- all (manner of, means), alway (-s), any (one), X daily, + ever, every (one, way), as many as, + no (-thing), X thoroughly, whatsoever, whole, whosoever.
The word "whosoever" in the l5th and l6th verses should be rendered "all";in the original it is the word usually rendered all throughout the New Testament; it occurs hundreds of times, and it is rendered
"all" in over nine hundred instances, and whosoever in only about forty; the rendering all then is plainly the usual one.
The word rendered "believeth," in the original is a participle, "believing"; the clause should read, "that all, believing in him should not," etc. The words, "believing in him," are explanatory, telling us how "all" are to be saved, viz, by believing in him. In the common version it will be noticed that the participle is, without authority, rendered by the verb "believeth," and the words, "whosoever believeth in him" are thereby made to have a conditional force, as though it read, if they believe in him, implying that some will not believe in him, and hence will perish, and be lost eternally.
But this is not a correct rendering of the original, as I have shown above; the clause is not conditional, but is thrown in, as a participial form, as explanatory of the manner of the world's salvation, by believing in him; this view is fully confirmed by the l9th verse; "for God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world but that the world through him might be saved."
Might be saved: Stong's 4982 sozo (sode'-zo); from a primary sos (contraction for obsolete saoz, "safe"); to save, i.e. deliver or protect (literally or figuratively): KJV-- heal, preserve, save (self), do well, be
(make) whole. The word might was added by the translator
Now I will give the whole passage as it ought to be.
"As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the son of man be lifted up, that all,
believing in him. might have æonial life. For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son,
that all, believing in him, might not perish, but have æonial life. For God sent not his Son into the world
to condemn the world but that the world through him be saved."
Thus truthfully translated this passage is one of the grandest and most sweeping declarations of the final universal triumph of God's grace in the salvation of the world, contained in the Bible. It is positive and direct, and mighty enough, could they only appreciate it, to utterly silence all those narrow, shortsighted souls who think that God will only gain a partial victory over the devil, that he will not save the world, but only a portion of it, a vast number being eternally lost. It is very plain why the translators of the common version handled this passage as they did. Their creed would not allow them to accept it just as it reads; it required only a slight change to make it conform to their own idea. They insert the unusual rendering "whosoever," change believing to "believeth," and then, punctuating it accordingly, the passage is "tinkered" so as to harmonize with the creed. Thank God for deliverance from man made creeds!
"Let God be true, though every man be false" (Rom. 3:4).
Youngs Literal John 3:14 `And as Moses did lift up the serpent in the wilderness, so it behoveth the Son of Man to be lifted up, 15 that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during, 16 for God did so love the world, that His Son -- the only begotten -- He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during. 17 For God did not send His Son to the world that he may judge the world, but that the world may be saved through him;
　
　
　
The wages of sin is death.
You asked for more information on this.
Now you complain that I gave you too much?
The conclusion is spoken to directly by Paul.
The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ.
You can't see, because you wish to not see.
Regardless, it's about time Christians stop subjecting God's words to the letters of Paul.
Wow, what a mess.
Here is John 3:14-17 in the original. I will translate it for you.
καὶ καθὼς Μωϋσῆς ὕψωσεν τὸν ὄφιν ἐν τῇ ἐρήμῳ οὕτως ὑψωθῆναι δεῖ τὸν υἱὸν τοῦ ἀνθρώπου, ἵνα πᾶς ὁ πιστεύων ἐν αὐτῷ ἔχῃ ζωὴν αἰώνιον. Οὕτως γὰρ ἠγάπησεν ὁ θεὸς τὸν κόσμον, ὥστε τὸν υἱὸν τὸν μονογενῆ ἔδωκεν ἵνα πᾶς ὁ πιστεύων εἰς αὐτὸν μὴ ἀπόληται ἀλλ' ἔχῃ ζωὴν αἰώνιον. οὐ γὰρ ἀπέστειλεν ὁ θεὸς τὸν υἱὸν εἰς τὸν κόσμον, ἵνα κρίνῃ τὸν κόσμον, ἀλλ' ἵνα σωθῇ ὁ κόσμος δι' αὐτοῦ.
And as Moses lifted the snake in the wilderness so be-lifted must the son the man, that all the believe (those that believe) in him have life pertaining-to-the-age (eternal). So loved the God the world, that the son the one-of-a-kind he-gave that all the believe (those who believe) in him won't perish but have life aionion (eternal). Not for sent the God the son into the world, that he-judge the world, but that he-save the world through him.
Notice that verse 15 and 16 both say ἵνα πᾶς ὁ πιστεύων ἐν αὐτῷ ἔχῃ ζωὴν αἰώνιον. Not ina pas eche zoen aionion. That all WHO BELIEVE IN HIM have eternal life. NOT that all have eternal life. Verse 16 amplifies what John wrote in verse 15. He adds "will not perish", The meaning is clear. Those who refuse to believe in the Son will perish.
In case it was missed, John adds it again in verse 36:
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for Gods wrath remains on him.
This might prove something to you but it means nothing to no one else.
Besides you cannot not even address the different deaths.
Notice my rebuttal was written where everybody here could understand it.
I think you are trying to hide something.
The Bible talks directly about soul death. Nowhere does it speak of spirit death.
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?