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OK.Think about it.
OK.
Paul wrote that the wages or payment or result of sin, disobeying God, is death, dying, being dead. He says nothing about the wages or payment or penalty of sin being eternal torture. However Paul also says the free gift of God is eternal life (instead of death). Paul also doesn't say that the wages of sin is eternal life, which one would need if they were to be eternally tormented in the fire pit of hell.
Think about it.
Actually, I don't think they are living. The Apostle Paul said they were dead. It's the eternal conscious torment people who think they are living in eternal conscious torment. Me? I believe the Apostle Paul who said the wages of sin is death.Except that this post seems to be laboring under the idea that torment in the Pit is somehow "living."
What is wages? Payment received for work done, isn't it? The Apostle Paul said the wages of sin is death. Do you think it is something else? Eternal torment perhaps? Are you an Apostle, like the Apostle Paul is?In your job, do you get paid by the guy who's direction you follow, or do you get paid by your local judge?
Actually, I don't think they are living. The Apostle Paul said they were dead. It's the eternal conscious torment people who think they are living in eternal conscious torment. Me? I believe the Apostle Paul who said the wages of sin is death.
What is wages? Payment received for work done, isn't it? The Apostle Paul said the wages of sin is death.
Do you think it is something else? Eternal torment perhaps?
Are you an Apostle, like the Apostle Paul is?
I think an Apostle is someone sent to speak for someone else. We are talking about God's Apostles, of which Paul is one and you and I aint.Where is Satan and his angels spending eternity? The Lake of Fire, correct? And that's going to be something slightly less enjoyable than a cruise, right? And the Bible then says that WHO will be joining that initial group in said Lake?
Life here on Earth is far different from afterlife- Regardless of final destination.
Exactly. And those who are living in perpetual sin, who have not taken salvation, are DEAD TO CHRIST. Death.
No- The wage of sin IS death. However, the sentence and judgment for a life of unforgiven sin is eternal torment.
One is present realm, one is the next.
What's the definition of "Apostle" again?
I think an Apostle is someone sent to speak for someone else. We are talking about God's Apostles, of which Paul is one and you and I aint.
Anyway this is all way too heavy for me. The Apostle Paul said the wages of sin is death, not eternal torment. I'll just believe what the bible says about it.
Sin is a trespass against an eternal God, therefore it warrants an eternal punishment.Its an age old argument. The only thing I'll mention here is this: Do finite beings deserve an infinite fate?
Whether or not they are saved is beside the point, they do not deserve an infinite fate. We do not deserve eternal life but it is a gift from God. We do not deserve to be brutally tortured for the rest of ever, but...(fill in the blank, I will not defend this theology)
I think God will judge us, but torture without end is just cruel.
Where is Satan and his angels spending eternity? The Lake of Fire, correct?
Incorrect. The LOF is the second death and Paul said that death will be abolished. The devil and his angels will be burned up in the LOF as will the world and the flesh. They are the enemies of God, not man.
There will be no place for death when God is All in All.
All I can offer is a simple man's view on this.
The dead are judged, either entering into eternal life or the lake of fire, which is the second death. Hell(Hades), the dead, and death will be thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, which again is the second death.
That's in Revelations 20.
In Revelations 21, it says that God wipes away their tears, and there will be no more death, or crying, or mourning, or pain for the old order of things has passed away. The author then explains that he is told to write down what happened.
It seems like the lake of fire is not meant to be a permanent residence for those thrown into it. That is to say, they won't burn for all eternity even if the lake itself does burn for all eternity.
I note that the verse you're speaking of does not directly refer to those in the Lake of Fire. Nor does it say "all men."
Just an observation.
Can you specify which verse you're noting? I assume you mean Revelations 21:4
"He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away."
You could say that it does not speak directly to those in the lake of fire. I could say that those in the lake of fire have already been wiped out in the second death. You say it doesn't reference all men. I say it doesn't exclude certain men. Its kind of open to interpretation here.
Those not in the book of life enter the lake of death. That's the interpretation that makes the most sense to me. I am still open to other interpretations though.
You are correct in your assumption.
Hades and Sheol are tossed into the Lake of Fire- And that is the second death. However, note that nothing is said of the destruction of the LoF.
There is no possible way for God to contradict Himself, right? So then it is WE who must be wrong in our definition of "death."
Yeah, it doesn't mention anything about the destruction of the lake of fire.
However, it does explicitly mention that there will be no more death, and it also says,twice, that the lake of fire is the second death.
I guess the question is, do you think the lake of fire will be literal or not, and if you do, does it matter if it burns forever? There will be no more death, or pain, or crying, or pain, at the very least for those whose names are in the book of life, after the white throne judgement.
Basically I'm trying to say that just because the lake burns forever, that doesn't mean that the people in it will burn forever.
Revelation 20:10 is pretty clear on that, Tavita.
Some versions say eternity, some say forever, some say forever and ever. The original Greek says for "the ages of the ages." Regardless, it's about time Christians stop subjecting God's words to the letters of Paul.
Again- "They shall be tormented day and night for the ages of the ages" does NOT sound open to interpretation. Yet at the same time, as you said, the LoF is mentioned as being "the second death." Or- Is it? It appears that being thrown into it is the second death.
What do you and I think of when we think of death? A ceasing to exist? A lack of presence? How about separation?
So then, is it likely that as I suggested earlier, those who advocate annihilation are not seeing what is being said here properly?
It boils down to this: Either God is a liar, or He is not. If He is, what are we doing? If He is not, then we are wrong.
I believe that death is an eternal punishment. Unless one is rasied to eternal life.Sin is a trespass against an eternal God, therefore it warrants an eternal punishment.
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