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The trouble with predestinationism is that love and salvation have no distinctive meaning without free will. Also, strict predestination even limits God's freedom. The future is an open possibility.
This is not a debate thread. Please address only the OP, as the rules dictate.
Are you serious?
Both Christians and non-Christians can love.
I am still trying to understand what you think one has to do to go to heaven. In your illustration, you say that saving faith is like jumping with a parachute. What exactly does that mean? Does jumping mean asking Jesus into his heart? Does it mean accepting Jesus as the Lord of her life? Does it mean trying to do good works? Does it mean deciding to love God? Does it mean baptism? (If you "jump" by getting baptized, should we call it diving?) Does Jump mean repent? Must one confess that he is a sinner? Etc., etc., etc.
So many things have been suggested here. Which of those, if any, are included in your jumping plan of salvation.
So that is what it comes down to--we are saved by "jumping" but nobody seems to know exactly what they mean by "jumping out of the plane".
You're asking the wrong question now. It's not about what we do. Nothing we do can earn salvation. Jumping from a plane doesn't give you faith in your parachute, your faith causes you to to jump.
"Having love" is different than "being able to love". I'm not sure what "having love" means in a non-Christian context. Obviously everyone is able to love.
But it still leaves the question of what love actually is. And I asked you and you never responded because you thought I was making the ridiculous claim that non-Christians can't love. You cherry picked my post pretty good there.
"I agree with Steve's answer: "Actually, the full list is to love God with all your strength and your neighbor as yourself."
And you said, "Got it. All we need is love." But then, Steve's answer requires us to know what love is. So what is love to you doubtingmerle?
You also then said, "And if I have love ... "
In a non-Christian context, I have no idea what "having" love means. I'm not even sure what that means in a Christian context unless you use the metaphorical language and say that having love is synonymous with having Christ dwell in you."
The bold is the part you cherry-picked out of context.
The problem with your question is that not everyone believes the same thing, even within Christianity, so you will not get a final answer. If your mission was to prove that there is no consensus between Christians, I don't think anyone here would disagree with you, so who are you trying to prove it to?
Got it. Christians differ widely on how to get to heaven.
So what should the seeker do who wants to know how to get to heaven and is reading this thread? Are you saying that he should just pick one of the responses here and hope it is the right answer?
What's the matter? Did you wake up with your drawers in a knot?
Please, please, please calm yourself down.
Please.
There was no cherry picking. I wrote two messages to you. In one I told you that I thought both Christians and non-Christians could love, and in the other I told you what I thought love means. I think that answers your questions.
And no, I do not mean "having Christ" when I use the expression, "having love". "Having love" means having love in your heart and in your life for others.
Do you want my answer?
Wouldn't it make more sense to decide what you believe and what makes sense to you and then follow that instead of asking for specific people's answers to questions that have extremely variable answers?
Love is not just a set of actions, but is also an inward state that cares deeply for others. If that inward state of compassion for others exists in your heart, then you can be said to "have love" in your heart. But don't let the term "have love" throw you. "Have love" basically means loving.Your definition of love is: "caring deeply for the needs and feeling of others and taking actions that are for the good of others."
Still don't see how you can "have love" using this definition. Your definition of love relies purely on outward actions.
Interesting. So I can decide what to believe about salvation and not ask what you folks think? I must say, I was not expecting that response.
I asked you before if by faith you meant "confidence". Your answer was not clear. You seemed to be saying that faith meant spiritually "jumping". But now you make it clear that you don't mean spiritually jumping, but are back to sounding like you mean having confidence or trust in God.
Once more: When you refer to "faith", are you or are you not referring to confidence and trust in God? Please answer.
I also trust in God in the sense that I am confident that he will not allow me (or any other person) to suffer eternal torment of hell. Since I have this trust in God, am I therefore saved from hell? Is that all that is needed? Is that saving faith? If I need anything else, please tell me what else is needed.
Got it. Christians differ widely on how to get to heaven.
So what should the seeker do who wants to know how to get to heaven and is reading this thread? Are you saying that he should just pick one of the responses here and hope it is the right answer?
OK, so don't worry about it? There is not a thing I can do to change my status. If God decides to save me, he will save me. If he doesn't I am history. And that's all there is to it?You were asking what a person has to do to be saved, but what I've been trying to explain is that it isn't about what we do. We are completely on the receiving end of salvation. All we need is faith, and that is something that God gives us.
Faith in God is a supernatural thing. It is a combination of belief, trust, and love. When the Holy Spirit starts to work in us, faith happens, and it causes us to change from the inside out.
well the bible is the only source that we should use to find our beliefs
his big 10 and any commands jesus left with us. do good. that kinda stuff, its all in the bible
Interesting. So I can decide what to believe about salvation and not ask what you folks think? I must say, I was not expecting that response.
This is the thing. If you want Joe's answer, ask Joe. If you want my answer, ask me. If you want to know the Christian interpretation of the answer, which is what you are essentially asking for here, I'm sorry but because there are different denominations, unless you specify, you will get different answers. This is just a simple reality. If you want the right answer, you have to ask someone who is omniscient, because although every Christian has faith, none have certainty, and if they think they do, they're kidding themselves because faith has nothing to do with evidence
If God wanted us to know that he was real, he'd have made it obvious. That's not what he wants though. He wants us to have faith, because faith is harder.
If you would like a specific denomination's answer, please specify, otherwise I will assume you are either ignoring the unarguable facts I have laid out to you in the first paragraph or lack the logic ability to understand how they are unarguable.
Again, I'm assuming that you don't really want an answer and thus will ignore my post or you will quote one part of it that you have some smart ass answer to. Please don't. I will not be replying to anything else you have to say in this thread. If you would like my answer, or want clarification on something I have said, please PM me, I don't want to be a part of you making Christianity look like a joke anymore.
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