What are the major differences?

[Searching_for_Christ]

Between the LCMS WELS, and any of the other Conservative synods?

 

[PreachersWife2004]

Those LCMS people seem to like Lutefisk. WELS people are rational - they like creamed herring.



Just kidding. Here's an article from Forward in Christ which talks about our differences. This is from a WELS perspective, mind you. I'm sure someone will post the LCMS link to our differences as well...

 

[Searching_for_Christ]

hmm, so what separates the two synods is because the LCMS is willing to in part have a kinda "slanted" fellowship with some groups that don't believe exactly as they do? that's pretty interesting.


Its also interesting that they said there seems to be a lot of "theological" disunity in some of the Churches within the LCMS. Thanks for the link

 

[alexnbethmom]

from pastor fisk:

Worldview Everlasting - WELS and the LCMS

 

[PreachersWife2004]

hmm, so what separates the two synods is because the LCMS is willing to in part have a kinda "slanted" fellowship with some groups that don't believe exactly as they do? that's pretty interesting.

It does go a bit deeper than that, but yeah, that's one of the big ones. We also see differences in the role of women in the church, as well as the ministerial office.

We call these things happy inconsistencies, though.

Its also interesting that they said there seems to be a lot of "theological" disunity in some of the Churches within the LCMS. Thanks for the link

There is a lot of disunity in various LCMS churches, and without a synodical office (which I don't believe LCMS has like the WELS does) it makes church discipline difficult. I know of more than a few LCMS churches whose pastors are little popes, and then there's the ones where the congregation ALWAYS calls the shots. You may find one or two WELS churches who buck the system, but I promise you that once you find them the current leadership doesn't last long (if it's a leadership issue) and the pastors on the synod level have no problems reprimanding congregations.

I have always been a bit confused as to how the LCMS works in terms of hierarchy. I know DaRev can explain it better than I can.

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

Those LCMS people seem to like Lutefisk. WELS people are rational - they like creamed herring.

IMO, it's ELCA folks that like Lutefish.
LCMS folks like bratwurst.


As I understand it, the material difference almost entirely concerns the issue of "fellowship." I understand, WELS cut off relations with LCMS many years ago because a few LCMS congragations had Boy Scout troops and they often pray before they eat (together), and WELS objected to WELS kids praying with non-WELS kids. A fellowship issue..... While SOME may not see this as so serious as to divide denominations, this historically has been HUGE stuff among conservative, American Lutherans (it's a major point of debate just within the LCMS). Some Lutherans fight over these things. My OWN feeling is that if a person doesn't want to pray with people not a member of their denomination, that's entirely up to them and I can respect that - not reason to split. I was a Boy Scout and there were troops that didn't pray at all, and there were scouts that respected others praying but just didn't do so themselves - and that was fine. There is a pledge to God but nothing in it contrary to the Lutheran Confessions. But that's just MY opinion about that. Anyone who feels best that their children shouldn't participate at all in the BSA can not put their kids in BSA (most boys don't participate). I REALLY appreciated my BSA days and was blessed by it.

Doctrinally, both are uberconservative and very confessional. In the area of congregational PRACTICE or custom, they differ a bit in the area of fellowship. I think both respect the other's views in that specific area, they just don't fully agree.


That's MY understanding, and I ain't saying it's saying much.


Pax


-Josiah





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[Searching_for_Christ]

from pastor fisk:

Worldview Everlasting - WELS and the LCMS

This was an interesting article as well! Especially the part where the guy admitted that the LCMS became a "bit" liberal.


Would I be correct in assuming that Deaconesses, are one of those separating factors? I think I remember reading that the LCMS allows it, but the WELS does not.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

This was an interesting article as well! Especially the part where the guy admitted that the LCMS became a "bit" liberal.

A good number of our friends are LCMS and they sadly say the same thing. I don't know if you'd find most singular churches in the LCMS to be more liberal, but they've talked about the synod as a whole leaning a little liberal. That era may have ended, though, when Kieschnick was finally replaced.

Would I be correct in assuming that Deaconesses, are one of those separating factors? I think I remember reading that the LCMS allows it, but the WELS does not.

Currently the WELS has very few deaconesses. Not because we don't believe in them, but because very few women feel called to be such...or because many women do the role without taking the title. I have a few friends who do prison ministry for women who would probably be called deaconesses, but aren't for whatever reason.

 

[Searching_for_Christ]

I hope that liberal thing hasn't affected the Church that I plan to attend. Being in Vermont, you never know. Almost every Church in my area is "pastored" by a woman, not that the Lutheran Church that I'm going to attend is, but it would be interesting to see if they have allowed any forms of liberalism to creep into their services and teachings ect.

 

[QuiltAngel]

This is one slanted tie that is finished:
The Divorce is Finalized

 

[ratchet30]

What could the WELS do if it found out that I was praying with a non WELS member? I have friends from other evangelical churches that are strong believers but I don't see any wisdom in cutting off fellowship with them.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

What could the WELS do if it found out that I was praying with a non WELS member? I have friends from other evangelical churches that are strong believers but I don't see any wisdom in cutting off fellowship with them.

No one is saying you should. Believing that means a fundamental misunderstanding of the doctrine of fellowship.

There are many times where we might pray with a non-WELS person. What we discourage is actively attending or engaging in church services, etc with non-WELS people. By attending a service and engaging in it, you are showing a unity with that particular church.

I'd recommend THIS book to get you started on the differences between the synods, as well as THIS book which outlines our beliefs and doctrines.

 

[ratchet30]

I read this we believe and what I read it seemed I couldn't pray with non WELS members. If you have the money I'll order WELS and other Lutherans

 

[DaRev]

No one is saying you should. Believing that means a fundamental misunderstanding of the doctrine of fellowship.

There are many times where we might pray with a non-WELS person. What we discourage is actively attending or engaging in church services, etc with non-WELS people. By attending a service and engaging in it, you are showing a unity with that particular church.

Interesting response. Sounds VERY LCMS and seems to contradict other responses I have heard concerning this very issue.

As far as the OP is concerned, the basic difference between LCMS and WELS is one of application, which leads to a series of differences in understanding of Biblical teaching and how it is applied. Once you understand that, you'll see that there is really no major differences between the two church bodies.

As far as heirarchy, the difference is that the LCMS is a congregational church body (governed from the bottom up) and the WELS is a heirarchial church body (governed from the top down). There are aspects of both that are desireable, especially when it comes to the common practices of the Church. There is more uniformity within the WELS than within the LCMS. It is in this area that I applaud the WELS and wish the LCMS could follow suit.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

DaRev, really they say to look at each case individually. If I were at a breakfast and someone there happened to be a pastor of another denomination and he wanted to lead our meal prayer, I wouldn't pray. However, when I'm with my family, if Uncle Al wants to say the meal prayer then I'd probably go ahead and do it, even though he's not WELS. Two very different situations.

Let's see, who was it that got himself embroiled in a hot mess not too long ago...probably was Mark Jeske...he went and did a radio show or something and said a closing prayer with the rest of the panel, who were not WELS. He opined that it was not the time to bring up fellowship issues, and he felt that because HE was the one leading the prayer, it wasn't the same.

Still don't know totally how that played out.

 

[DaRev]

DaRev, really they say to look at each case individually. If I were at a breakfast and someone there happened to be a pastor of another denomination and he wanted to lead our meal prayer, I wouldn't pray. However, when I'm with my family, if Uncle Al wants to say the meal prayer then I'd probably go ahead and do it, even though he's not WELS. Two very different situations.

According to everything I have heard from the WELS, these are not two very different situations. The WELS states that prayer in any circumstance is an act of worship regardless of who leads it. Thus, praying with someone who is not WELS is the same as worshipping with someone who is not WELS. Whether that person is a pastor or an uncle makes no difference. If I have misunderstood the WELS teaching all this time, please correct me.

I do agree, however, that praying within a corporate worship service is a different situation than praying at breakfast with Uncle Al, which is why it's not an issue in the LCMS (so long as Uncle Al is Christian).

 

[PreachersWife2004]

According to everything I have heard from the WELS, these are not two very different situations. The WELS states that prayer in any circumstance is an act of worship regardless of who leads it. Thus, praying with someone who is not WELS is the same as worshipping with someone who is not WELS. Whether that person is a pastor or an uncle makes no difference. If I have misunderstood the WELS teaching all this time, please correct me.

It is the same thing, technically speaking. However, we also note that there are circumstances where prayer with another Christian is acceptable. Such a time would be prayer with family.

It is still discouraged to pray with those outside of our fellowship, but life happens and sometimes fellowship doctrine isn't the mountain we wish to die on. It just shouldn't be a recurring issue.

I do agree, however, that praying within a corporate worship service is a different situation than praying at breakfast with Uncle Al, which is why it's not an issue in the LCMS (so long as Uncle Al is Christian).

I've been to a few different gatherings where someone decided they wanted to lead the group in a prayer and I didn't pray. I think that even without our fellowship doctrine in place, I would still feel uncomfortable in such a group setting. I may bow my head and pray my own prayer, or just sit and do nothing depending on the circumstance.

I think the main thing is that it's a case by case thing and that praying with those outside our fellowship shouldn't happen very often. Sometimes it IS a great opportunity to bring up fellowship, otherwise not so much.

Last week my uncle led my family in a prayer at a meal at a restaurant while we were in Michigan for my grandpa's funeral. We all prayed. Technically, we could have chosen to not pray with Uncle Al since he's LCMS, but under the circumstances, praying as a family was acceptable. Were we praying with one of my other Uncles who were ELCA, the situation may have been different. Of course, we also know Uncle Al well enough to know that his beliefs are more in-line with the WELS than LCMS - he just has been LCMS for years because my aunt was.

But it's mainly discouraged - yet unless someone persisted in challenging the doctrine, egregiously breaking it (praying with non-Christians, for example) or continually going against it, Pastors and Elders aren't really going to "do" anything other than counsel the person.

 

[omajoy]

I have never heard that it is sort of ok to pray with non-WELS members sometimes. I am happy to hear this.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

I have never heard that it is sort of ok to pray with non-WELS members sometimes. I am happy to hear this.

I think you might be getting the wrong impression here. It would probably be a good idea to talk to your pastor about specific situations.

 

[omajoy]

I think you might be getting the wrong impression here. It would probably be a good idea to talk to your pastor about specific situations.

I don't think I'm getting the wrong impression from what you are saying. But you are right, I should speak to my pastor about things like this and not depend on someones answer on a forum.