What are the main differences between Traditional and Progressive?

[RC_NewProtestants]

I think we addressed redhorse at the time. But it is good to get back to the thread purpose rather then to have to deal with the Calvinistic stuff that got us derailed. I will cease to deal with that subject here.

 

[Byfaithalone1]

That is rich as if I have been the one evading. I will answer you pathetic attempt to try and make it seem as if I am the one the dishonest one. But you do wear my patience. Once again you state you questions poorly probably so that you can try and weasel out of them again.

Your negative feedback is duly noted. I appreciate that you are now attempting to answer my questions.

Man does not as a corporate entity accept or receive God's gift of grace.

That wasn't the intent of my question. Thanks for clarifying.

A more proper question would be: can a man choose to accept or receive God's gift of grace?

OK your addition of the words "does" and "a" are duly noted.

To that the answer is yes.

OK. Since you answered YES--that you do believe that an individual chooses to accept or receive God's gift of grace--then my requests for Scriptural support are indeed valid requests (despite your many protests).

In fact the first sermon preached after the resurrection indicate exactly that. Peter gives a sermon that takes the listeners through the life death and resurrection of Christ and a large amount of those who heard the story believed.

Since Acts 4:4 is the only text you cited, then I must assume that this is the passage you are describing. If not, please clarify. "The message" as described in Acts 4:4 is actually found in Acts 3. Included in this message is the following:

"By faith in the name of Jesus, this man whom you see and know was made strong. It is Jesus' name and the faith that comes through him that has given this complete healing to him, as you can all see."
​

Q: According to "the message" presented in Acts 3-4, Whom does faith come through?

As the above illustrates pretty much any of the verses that talk about believing in the Bible indicate that the person is chooses to accept or receive God's gift of grace.

I've yet to see a single verse that says that. Even in "the message" you cited, faith comes through Jesus Christ. How can we take credit for that which comes through Him?

Because that is what believing in God is about. Realizing that God is not your enemy, that God loves the person and that God will bring salvation to the person.

Although I have agreed that there is a human element in the concept of "belief," I wonder whether one has the ability to have the realization you describe on his own?!?

As I said before your problem is that you don't hold to any normal understanding of the words believe, faith or trust.

Thanks for articulating what my problem is.

You see them as gifts giving rather then mental acceptance of ideas.

I've presented the Scriptural evidence. They ARE gifts.

BFA

 

[Adventtruth]

I think we addressed redhorse at the time. But it is good to get back to the thread purpose rather then to have to deal with the Calvinistic stuff that got us derailed. I will cease to deal with that subject here.

Your argument is with the simple text I quoted...you can't deny them or refute them.

AT

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

Mischaracterizing BFA's and Moriah's positions as "Calvinist" (or anything else either of us have clearly stated bes not the case) needs to be eliminated from this discussion entirely. The deliberate mischaracterizing of another's views just because one does not agree with them constitutes fraud and deceit of the absolute worst variety: "spin". Spin will not be tolerated here. It constitutes wanton and deliberate breach of the 9th commandment and bes not acceptable for any believer in Christ to engage.

Funny how someone can pass judgment against another for being afflicted by demons, even reject all possibility of dialog with them out of hand on the presumption they must be "speaking with the devil's voice" -- and then proceed themselves to do that very thing deliberately and purposefully by perpetuating falsehood. Hmmm.... wonder what the Lord would make of that sort of nonsense....

Now then. Do we need a moderator to referee here? or can we expect appropriate behavior in this regard from the other participants now, seeing as they have been told no less than three or four times no one here bes "Calvinist" and even had clarified for them precisely of WHAT others' positions DO consist? May we please have actual dialog now instead of this button-pushing public display of the socio-emotional equivalent to "solitary vice?"

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

Some seem to be confusing an offer with a gift. I wonder why we want to add so much difficulty to the work of the Creator?

Not sure what you mean. Can you please demonstrate from Scripture what constitutes an "offer" versus what constitutes a "gift" with regard to the subject(s) at hand?

 

[RC_NewProtestants]

This has gone on long enough in this thread, I won't continue here. Moriah you are not a calvinist you are a universalist. Calvinist is used as a term for those who believe in predestination (not simply predestination in God knows but God decides the destiny) and no free will.

I may participate in a thread on the subject in its own thread, I probably won't with Moriah however as I find your comments about me rude and inaccurate.

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

That is rich as if I have been the one evading. I will answer you pathetic attempt to try and make it seem as if I am the one the dishonest one. But you do wear my patience.

The Lord rebuke you, voice of pretension, pride and haughtiness, and make you to keep silence. This voice has not been invited to this conversation and its arrogance and phony superiority posturing has no power here. Be gone, in Jesus' mighty name.

(1) Does man choose to accept or receive God's gift of grace?

... A more proper question would be: can a man choose to accept or receive God's gift of grace? To that the answer is yes. In fact the first sermon preached after the resurrection indicate exactly that. Peter gives a sermon that takes the listeners through the life death and resurrection of Christ and a large amount of those who heard the story believed.

Scripture states that faith itself -- salvific belief -- bes a gift from God, not the work of man:
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. ~Ephesians 2:8-9

Romans 10 takes up the question as to why some believe and some do not. It invokes a certain causal chain of precipitators which lead to faith, none of which mention human choice or "free will":

So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. ~Romans 10:17.
​

Moriah highly recommends reading the entire chapter to get the full meaning and impact of this statement, as the entire chapter deals with God's "chain of causality" in the soteriological process. For example:

For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! ~ Romans 10:13-15

​

Not one link in this chain points to the will of the individual nor his/her "choice" concerning anything. Instead, each link leads back further and further into utter helpless dependence upon the will of God Himself to move and intervene, clear on back to Him selecting and sending one to bring the good news.

Bottom line gets down to pride and arrogance. Only pride and arrogance prevent an individual from seeing his/her desperate, dire need of God and absolute helplessness to do anything to redeem himself or herself -- assuming of course a genuine awareness of sin has been bestowed by the Holy Spirit. Without this genuine awareness of the exceeding depths of filth and corruption resident in our mortal flesh and its power apart from God's intervention to wholly and utterly deceive, program, own, enslave, and consume us (with or without demonic enhancements), no one can even begin to appreciate how desperate his condition or how great his need of God.

For those well aware of this, and humbled by it into the dust, the news that salvation bes completely and entirely the work of a loving, intervening, delivering God, and completed in every respect in the life and death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, bes exceeding good news indeed. For those unaware, or refusing to have their pride and arrogance humbled by it, it bes a stumbling stone and a rock of offense, even as it bes written in 1 Peter 2:1-10 and Galatians 5:6-11. The latter reference mentions the "offense of the cross" which for too many has become falsely equated with the notion of someone sneaking in the "bad news" into the Good News: namely, now that you have been shown God's love, you'd better obey OR ELSE. That notion and that attitude bes an absolute vicious lie from the pits of hell and completely opposite of the true and original and real "offense of the cross" which bes the mercy of Christ and the LIBERTY to which salvation brings us, OUT from under the yoke of bondage to rules and laws and into the joyful dynamic of a relationship of LOVE.

(2) Where in Scripture does it teach that man chooses to accept or receive God's gift of grace?

As the above illustrates pretty much any of the verses that talk about believing in the Bible indicate that the person is chooses to accept or receive God's gift of grace.

Please produce any scriptures that even remotely indicate or point to human individual "choice" figuring into this equation. We have produced many to indicate it does not, but you have not produced a single one to the contrary yet. You have merely repeatedly asserted this to be the case without one single scripture showing forth the matter plainly.

What scripture DOES offer as the course for any individual to follow would be to ASK God for that good gift. So that if any find themselves disbelieving but wish to believe, or find themselves weak in faith, or find themselves beset by doubt, or find themselves unable to connect with God and experience His gift, they have but to ASK. Not "choose" ... but ASK.

And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you. For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent?
Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion?
If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him? ~Luke 11:9-13

​

Why does Jesus mention the Holy Spirit in this context? Because every good and perfect gift which comes down from the Father of Light, in Whom bes no variableness nor shadow of turning, bes "packaged" in the gift of His Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit brings to us from God the full provision of our new life in Him, including (though not limited to):

• being the active agency of rebirth into the Kingdom of God (John 3:6-8);
• guiding us into all truth (John 16:13), which makes us free (John 8:32);
• teaching us all things (as promised in Jeremiah 31:34) and bringing all things Jesus taught to our remembrance (John 14:26);
• convicting us of sin, righteousness and judgment (John 16:8);
• dwelling with us and in us (John 14:17);
• bestowing spiritual gifts (charisms) equipping us for service (1 Corinthians 12:4-13);
• and much more...

Because that is what believing in God is about. Realizing that God is not your enemy, that God loves the person and that God will bring salvation to the person.

That bes a very eloquent statement of the faith that saves us indeed.
But it does not unequivocally indicate the origin of that saving faith, which scripture clearly does define as being a gift from God and not something produced by human effort (individual or otherwise).

Are you teaching that faith and belief are not gifts that are presented to us ... [but] mere "mental acceptance of ideas"?

With all due respect, anyone that perceives the Gospel as nothing more than a set of ideas requiring mere mental assent has not been born again, has never tasted of the Kingdom of God, and has never truly met or encountered the risen Jesus Christ. As such, they bes not of the Body and cannot contribute to a discussion of matters pertinent to the Body because spiritual things bes spiritually discerned, and they have not been born of the Spirit.
NOT because Moriah judges them -- Moriah bes woefully unfit to judge anyone! -- but because Our Lord so tells us so, and the fruits of His word may plainly be seen in their discourse.

1 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.......
10The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly. ~John 10:1, 10

3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. ~ 2 Corinthians 4:3-4

7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? but we have the mind of Christ.
~ 1 Corinthians 2:7-16​

God bless richly each member of His Body and bring those not yet here out of darkness into His glorious light. Be strong in the Lord and in the power of His might.

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

I don't profess to know how salvation works RC. All I know is that God enlightens all men...human beings when they come into the world. But the bible clearly teaches that some stumble at Christ and that they where destined to do so. Your argument is with the world of God.

(1Pe 2:6) For it stands in Scripture: "Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone, a cornerstone chosen and precious, and whoever believes in him will not be put to shame."
(1Pe 2:7) So the honor is for you who believe, but for those who do not believe, "The stone that the builders rejected has become the cornerstone,"
(1Pe 2:8) and "A stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense." They stumble because they disobey the word, as they were destined to do.

Scripture elaborates a little further on this mystery with discussion about vessels of dishonor ... Romans 9:14-26
This bes a difficult passage to comprehend, but the upshot of it really unfolds in personal and individual experience and in recognizing the Kingdom "reversals" that Christ sets in motion -- to have mercy on the merciless, to be righteous to the unrighteous, and thereby through that power of His matchless, ceaseless, inexhaustible love and mercy, to transform them from one kind of thing into another. From children of wrath into sons and daughters of God. From vessels of dishonour into vessels of honour.

Vessels of dishonour will be redeemed by the true and living God who bes willing that NO ONE should perish but that ALL should come to repentance. Moriah bes living proof of this. And He does not always work the way humans expect, with a neat clean snap and dusting off and no more troubles. No, light descends INTO darkness in order to redeem it from the inside out, to cleanse from the inside out ... Light gets its hands filthy and grubby to the elbows, its knees and shoes in the mud and muck of sin to lift out those caught in the dire suction of the cesspit. Light does not mind getting muddy, getting dirty, being misunderstood, being maligned, being shot at, reviled, repudiated, attacked, vilified, not if He has His grasp firmly around the waist of one of His pitiful creatures, black sheep or white, and He bes worksy it out of the mire patiently and persistently. Jesus Christ never gives up, and God's mercy never expires. HALLELUJAH~~~!!!!! WHAT A SAVIOUR!!!!!

No...thats not what I am driving at. Men don't have free wills....Men have wills that have been made free. There is a difference. John 1:9 tells us that God enlightens all men who come into the world. We don't know when this happens but when it happens, the individual has then had a will that has been made free to either recieve or reject Christ. But before that point they can only choose a life of sin.

And AT that point, absent a miracle of God, they will still choose only sin.

27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. 28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?
35 Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?
36 For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.
​

Did you notice the key in verse 31? Moriah putsy in red to make it stand out. The joy of being called by Him bestows upon us the AWESOME and tremendous privilege of manifesting Him to those who have not yet come into the light and warmth of HIS boundless mercies. He plans and ordains that specifically through the mercy and grace WE show them, they will receive His. God allows them to continue in unbelief that WE may become involved, for OUR growth in Him and for the glory of HIS Name, to make it a praise throughout the earth, as they behold Him at work in us through the tender mercies and lovingkindness He manifests to them through us. We become the very hands and feet and lips of Jesus, the shoulders to bear others' burdens and be wet with their tears, the ears to hear their cries and the arms to lift them up and relieve their sufferings. What a tremendous privilege and awesome opportunity we have to be active participants in HIS work, and how gracious of Him to allow it!!!

And in that He has concluded ALL under unbelief that He might have mercy on ALL, we bes reminded yet again that where sin abounds, grace doth much more abound. We cannot out-sin the love and grace of God, period. This also bes a part of the good news, and it bes time to restore this full Gospel into the hands of the Body commissioned to take it into all the world. No more cringing in fear and cowardice behind stone tablets. An end to toxic soteriology and mixed wine (truth + lies) from pulpits based in the philosophies and vain deceits of men.

 

[RC_NewProtestants]

The Lord rebuke you, voice of pretension, pride and haughtiness, and make you to keep silence. This voice has not been invited to this conversation and its arrogance and phony superiority posturing has no power here. Be gone, in Jesus' mighty name.

Written from the person who claims that they are demon possessed your admonition makes me more certain that the truth is far closer to my view then yours.

Those who use Jesus name falsely are they that are accursed as Jesus explained. But for me to end discussions with profoundly misguided and rude people is the best way I can think of.

 

[Adventtruth]

Scripture elaborates a little further on this mystery with discussion about vessels of dishonor ... Romans 9:14-26
This bes a difficult passage to comprehend, but the upshot of it really unfolds in personal and individual experience and in recognizing the Kingdom "reversals" that Christ sets in motion -- to have mercy on the merciless, to be righteous to the unrighteous, and thereby through that power of His matchless, ceaseless, inexhaustible love and mercy, to transform them from one kind of thing into another. From children of wrath into sons and daughters of God. From vessels of dishonour into vessels of honour.

Vessels of dishonour will be redeemed by the true and living God who bes willing that NO ONE should perish but that ALL should come to repentance. Moriah bes living proof of this. And He does not always work the way humans expect, with a neat clean snap and dusting off and no more troubles. No, light descends INTO darkness in order to redeem it from the inside out, to cleanse from the inside out ... Light gets its hands filthy and grubby to the elbows, its knees and shoes in the mud and muck of sin to lift out those caught in the dire suction of the cesspit. Light does not mind getting muddy, getting dirty, being misunderstood, being maligned, being shot at, reviled, repudiated, attacked, vilified, not if He has His grasp firmly around the waist of one of His pitiful creatures, black sheep or white, and He bes worksy it out of the mire patiently and persistently. Jesus Christ never gives up, and God's mercy never expires. HALLELUJAH~~~!!!!! WHAT A SAVIOUR!!!!!


And AT that point, absent a miracle of God, they will still choose only sin.

27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. 28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?
35 Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?
36 For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.
​

Did you notice the key in verse 31? Moriah putsy in red to make it stand out. The joy of being called by Him bestows upon us the AWESOME and tremendous privilege of manifesting Him to those who have not yet come into the light and warmth of HIS boundless mercies. He plans and ordains that specifically through the mercy and grace WE show them, they will receive His. God allows them to continue in unbelief that WE may become involved, for OUR growth in Him and for the glory of HIS Name, to make it a praise throughout the earth, as they behold Him at work in us through the tender mercies and lovingkindness He manifests to them through us. We become the very hands and feet and lips of Jesus, the shoulders to bear others' burdens and be wet with their tears, the ears to hear their cries and the arms to lift them up and relieve their sufferings. What a tremendous privilege and awesome opportunity we have to be active participants in HIS work, and how gracious of Him to allow it!!!

And in that He has concluded ALL under unbelief that He might have mercy on ALL, we bes reminded yet again that where sin abounds, grace doth much more abound. We cannot out-sin the love and grace of God, period. This also bes a part of the good news, and it bes time to restore this full Gospel into the hands of the Body commissioned to take it into all the world. No more cringing in fear and cowardice behind stone tablets. An end to toxic soteriology and mixed wine (truth + lies) from pulpits based in the philosophies and vain deceits of men.

Good stuff! Its all about the Gospel! And God is the Gospel!

AT