what are our biggest faults

[jazzbird]

Received, I'm just wondering what your specific and personal experiences have been with the Reformed that lead you to these conclusions. It seems that you are relying a lot on stereotype, though maybe you have actually been so unfortunate as to only meet up with Hyper-Calvinists who don't believe in evangelism. To be honest, I've never even met a H-C.

You specifically point out the Presbyterian church as a group that does not reach out and keeps their noses buried in books, but from my own personal experience, I know that this is not true. I had never felt so welcome in a congregation as when I started attending this church. This body is filled with genuine people who love and care for each other and the community, and who deeply love their God. We do regular outreach and missionary work. I guess I am just at a loss as to how you've arrived at your point of view.

 

[Received]

I'm not relying on stereotype so much as psychological considerations by virtue of behavior admitted by specific members here and those who exist "in the flesh" in my hometown.

And again, I emphasize that it isn't the reformed stance that I am focusing on, but those churches that place absolute and extreme emphasis on theological upbringing as superseding a potential motivation for consideration of evangelism. The problem is already contained in that statement. If your church doesn't do this, then you obviously aren't within the group I am considering.

Also, another problem, the greatest problem, is that only individuals who are exceptions to my perceived rule are going to speak out here. Well, if you are an exception, you will speak here, but your speaking here in comparison with the lack of people who speak for the other side -- the self-confessed unevangelical reformed sect that focuses on meticulous understanding of scripture as paramount -- does not prove that your case is proof of my opinion being false -- precisely because no-one is going to speak out who is opposite of you. Chances are they aren't even in these forums; they are probably off chasing rabbits somewhere in some theological forum. Do you see the problem we have here?

 

[JJB]

I'm not relying on stereotype so much as psychological considerations by virtue of behavior admitted by specific members here and those who exist "in the flesh" in my hometown.

And again, I emphasize that it isn't the reformed stance that I am focusing on, but those churches that place absolute and extreme emphasis on theological upbringing as superseding a potential motivation for consideration of evangelism. The problem is already contained in that statement. If your church doesn't do this, then you obviously aren't within the group I am considering.

Also, another problem, the greatest problem, is that only individuals who are exceptions to my perceived rule are going to speak out here. Well, if you are an exception, you will speak here, but your speaking here in comparison with the lack of people who speak for the other side -- the self-confessed unevangelical reformed sect that focuses on meticulous understanding of scripture as paramount -- does not prove that your case is proof of my opinion being false -- precisely because no-one is going to speak out who is opposite of you. Chances are they aren't even in these forums; they are probably off chasing rabbits somewhere in some theological forum. Do you see the problem we have here?

If Christians can't hear or are not responding to the great commission why is that a psychological problem? Wouldn't it be a spiritual problem?

 

[edie19]

But: reformed individuals who write on subjects has no relevance to the overall congregation involved in hyper-doctrinal forms of reformed theology that I am attempting to point out. And, as hedging of my own bet as this may sound, the simple reading of books on evangelism is no proof that it affects one's evangelism; it could easily fit according to the scriptural emphasis, detached from practicality.

Now it sounds like I'm putting up a claim and being incredulous towards any other claims. I suppose the reason is that the only solution I can find is evidence of individuals engaging in the practicality of the gospel; and this is pretty much a difficulty considering it is in my context that this would have to happen.

I always cause problems.

I'm going to start with you last comment first - I'm sure you do. That isn't a bad thing - it's just that from reading your posts on various topics one can tell that you like to discuss things strongly and that you always have an opinion. As a person who loves to debate (read argue) I recognize the signs in others.

Like several other posters - I think we (Reformed/Calvinists) take a certain amount of pride (arrogance?) in our knowledge. My experience with those of the reformed faith (not just at my church, but overall) is that they study God's Word, they read extra-Biblical sources, and they regularly attend conferences. There's a thirst for knowledge - but then there's the resultant attitude that others might not be as knowledgable as we are.

I've attended a few churches in my lifetime (several of which were reformed, including the one I attend now) - and they've all done outreach in one way or another. They've supported different things and in different ways - but they've all done it.

My current church (strongly reformed/Calvinist) does more "evangelism" than any church I've attended in the past. Predestination and/or election doesn't take away the command to preach the Gospel to the world. We don't know who is elect and who isn't, we don't know what instrument God will use to reach people - so we are required to share God's word (Romans 10: 13-15)

 

[erin74]

Received,

It is interesting to hear what you have to say. It is certainly something that I have held concerns in.

However, I would like to offer 2 entire diocese as an exception to you.

I'm still yet to work out if we count in the 'reformed' definition, but certainly your description as to a thirst for knowledge and biblical understanding is something we have regularly been accused of.

The Anglican diocese I was a part of for many years is one of very few evangelical (not pertaining to evangelism as such, but to the desire to understand the scriptures, and place them first in our knowing God) diocese in Australia. Most of the others vary between being high and liberal. They are also the only truly growing Anglican diocese, with a bible college that is currently struggling to fit the numbers of students wanting to attend. The archbishop's main goal that he has set before the diocese is one of evangelism. He was previously the principal of the bible college for 17 years. The college sends many many students off to other diocese, denominations, and missionary agencies, as well as providing ministers for it's own diocese - but never enough. It is an incredibly academic college (perhaps a little too academic - not that it needs to dumb down, but perhaps provide an alternate level of qualification for those less intellectual students), but also a big sending college. It just can't produce enough graduates for the growing churches of the diocese.

The other diocese that are evangelical are smaller by comparison (rural, so not geographically smaller but population smaller). They tend to source their ministers from this college and one or two others. We are now in one of these smaller diocese.

I think the reason that evangelism is such a focus for this diocese is that in understanding the word fully, we also fully appreciate the need for all to hear it, and for all to be brought to a thorough understanding of the word, and through it God. With that understanding we can more fully appreciate all that God has done, and more fully understand how he desires us to live our lives.

Ok - I need to stop - I'm an incurable think out loud person - which equates to type out loud also!