What are Calvinists?

[Reformationist]

Is it just me or do people almost always get stuck on the "L"? Almost everyone I've talked to on this subject gets hung up on this.

That is certainly the most difficult of the points for most people. I will say that I think, at least for most people, their contention stems from a desire to protect God from seeming unrighteous because many people would say that's not fair. Ultimately they see "fairness" as synonymous to "righteousness." God, nowhere in the Bible, tells us that He will be fair. He says He will be just. What they are, unfortunately, forgetting is that the fair thing would be for God to send every sinner, which accounts for all of humanity, to hell. The fact that He doesn't is a sign of His grace.

I say, let's be glad God isn't fair. We want His mercy.

God bless

 

[Knight]

Good point Don.

A friend the other day asked how I dealt with the idea of Limited atonement. I told him I simply rest on the fact that God is just and everything He does is right. I may not understand it but it is right.

We weren't debating or anything so this answer seemed to suffice.

 

[LynneClomina]

Well, I believe that if one doesn't adhere to ALL 5 points expressed in the TULIP they cannot rightly call themselves by the title of Calvinist, since Calvin, while not being the author of that particular acrostic, definitely espoused all of its points. I often hear people claim to be "4 point Calvinists" or "3 point Calvinists" and it strikes me as odd. Bottom line,if you don't support all 5 points of the TULIP acrostic then you're not a Calvinist. You may be reformed but you're not a Calvinist.

God bless

i agree... i just didnt want to get into an argument with a 4 pointer.

 

[Joshua Howard]

To sum the Calvinistic doctrine's two biggest (and most illigitmate) teachings are these; #1, That it is impossible to loose one's salvation regardless of one's actions, and #2, that every soul is predestinated to heaven or hell, and is thus deprived of personal freewill. This doctrine not only makes a laughing stock out of evangelism and holiness, but it also portrays God to be a fanatical gambler.

One might declare the hardcore calvinist to believe something like this:

"All Souls, like lemmings, head toward a cliff over which they will inevitably jump. God stands with an outstreached net halfway down, catching roughly 50%, and saving them. The rest (those that he is either unable to catch, or deliberately avoids) continue to fall, and are splattered messily on the ground below."

And so you see Christianity through the eyes of a Calvinist. Not to judge anyone, but I will say that the Doctrine of Calvinism is not a Doctrine of Christ, and is very dangerous. On a closing note, I would also like to mention the importance of following JESUS rather than a famous MAN. Those of us who follow a man are in grave danger, and should beware, lest they ARE SENT STRONG DELUSION, THAT THEY MIGHT BELIEVE A LIE. (2 Thess. 2:11)

God Bless, Everybody.

 

[WayneThe5th]

Reformationist, I agree that one is not a Calvinist if they don't hold to all 5 points. Maybe you didn't mean it to sound like it did, but you also said they may be Reformed though they aren't Calvinists. I'm kinda scratching my head over it. Personally, I can see how someone can be a "Calvinist" insofar as they believe the 5 points (sovereign grace Baptists come to mind) yet not be Reformed in their views of, say, sacraments and worship. But how exactly could there be a person who was Reformed but not Calvinist soteriologically? Just wondering

 

[WayneThe5th]

To sum the Calvinistic doctrine's two biggest (and most illigitmate) teachings are these; #1, That it is impossible to loose one's salvation regardless of one's actions, and #2, that every soul is predestinated to heaven or hell, and is thus deprived of personal freewill. This doctrine not only makes a laughing stock out of evangelism and holiness, but it also portrays God to be a fanatical gambler.

One might declare the hardcore calvinist to believe something like this:

"All Souls, like lemmings, head toward a cliff over which they will inevitably jump. God stands with an outstreached net halfway down, catching roughly 50%, and saving them. The rest (those that he is either unable to catch, or deliberately avoids) continue to fall, and are splattered messily on the ground below."

And so you see Christianity through the eyes of a Calvinist. Not to judge anyone, but I will say that the Doctrine of Calvinism is not a Doctrine of Christ, and is very dangerous. On a closing note, I would also like to mention the importance of following JESUS rather than a famous MAN. Those of us who follow a man are in grave danger, and should beware, lest they ARE SENT STRONG DELUSION, THAT THEY MIGHT BELIEVE A LIE. (2 Thess. 2:11)

God Bless, Everybody.

You been readin' Dave Hunt? Speaking as a Calvinist, I can tell you that you don't have a very accurate picture of what we believe.

 

[Blindfaith]

I don't know of any Calvinist who DOESN'T believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, and saying so to the contrary is highly insulting.

I myself am not a Calvinist, but I have the greatest respect for the man. If I could have a 1/4 of the impact that he did, I would be very productive for the Kingdom.

 

[Bulldog]

Don't forget that Arminianism makes a laughing stock of God's providence, soveirgnty, and perfect grace.

 

[Bulldog]

To sum the Calvinistic doctrine's two biggest (and most illigitmate) teachings are these; #1, That it is impossible to loose one's salvation regardless of one's actions, and #2, that every soul is predestinated to heaven or hell, and is thus deprived of personal freewill. This doctrine not only makes a laughing stock out of evangelism and holiness, but it also portrays God to be a fanatical gambler.

One might declare the hardcore calvinist to believe something like this:

"All Souls, like lemmings, head toward a cliff over which they will inevitably jump. God stands with an outstreached net halfway down, catching roughly 50%, and saving them. The rest (those that he is either unable to catch, or deliberately avoids) continue to fall, and are splattered messily on the ground below."

And so you see Christianity through the eyes of a Calvinist. Not to judge anyone, but I will say that the Doctrine of Calvinism is not a Doctrine of Christ, and is very dangerous. On a closing note, I would also like to mention the importance of following JESUS rather than a famous MAN. Those of us who follow a man are in grave danger, and should beware, lest they ARE SENT STRONG DELUSION, THAT THEY MIGHT BELIEVE A LIE. (2 Thess. 2:11)

God Bless, Everybody.

You completely missed on what we believe. You're analogy has so many errors I couldn't fit them on a page. (just exaggerating to get a point across)

 

[Epiphany]

To Life Immortal

Wow, I have learned something about Calvinism and a little bit more about Protestantism in general. I don't agree with all of it, but we do agree on the major thing, the Lordship of Jesus Christ.

I wonder what the services are like. I don't think that they are very liturgical like Eastern Orthodox. (I am Antiochian Eastern Orthodox). How do Calvinists/Presbyterians worship?

Peace and Long Life
~*~ Epiphany ~*~

 

[LynneClomina]

To Life Immortal

Wow, I have learned something about Calvinism and a little bit more about Protestantism in general. I don't agree with all of it, but we do agree on the major thing, the Lordship of Jesus Christ.

I wonder what the services are like. I don't think that they are very liturgical like Eastern Orthodox. (I am Antiochian Eastern Orthodox). How do Calvinists/Presbyterians worship?

Peace and Long Life
~*~ Epiphany ~*~

at my church, we have a pre-service prayer meeting, which usually gets pretty noisy, then we have a rockin' worship service (started by a little more prayer) for however long the Lord takes us, we are a charismatic church, so we dance and lay before the Lord at the altar or whatever we feel led of the Spirit to do in worship, sometimes ppl get prayer at the front. the altar is "open" all the time, but sometimes there are "altar calls" when we are encouraged to commit something to the Lord or recieve prayer for something. then we have a great message by my pastor or someone he asks to preach, lately it's been followed by a bit of a question/answer period, which sometimes winds up with sharing and more prayer. then ppl hand around and gab and visit and encourage each other.

and that is the service at my charismatic calvinistic apostolic church.

 

[Bulldog]

at my church, we have a pre-service prayer meeting, which usually gets pretty noisy, then we have a rockin' worship service (started by a little more prayer) for however long the Lord takes us, we are a charismatic church, so we dance and lay before the Lord at the altar or whatever we feel led of the Spirit to do in worship, sometimes ppl get prayer at the front. the altar is "open" all the time, but sometimes there are "altar calls" when we are encouraged to commit something to the Lord or recieve prayer for something. then we have a great message by my pastor or someone he asks to preach, lately it's been followed by a bit of a question/answer period, which sometimes winds up with sharing and more prayer. then ppl hand around and gab and visit and encourage each other.

and that is the service at my charismatic calvinistic apostolic church.

What denomonation is that?

 

[ksen]

What are Calvinists?

Why, we are the hippest, coolest cats around.

 

[WayneThe5th]

How do Calvinists/Presbyterians worship?

Well, that's calls for a pretty long, detailed answer, but I'll try to serve up something briefer at the risk of oversimplification. Obviously, as has been noted, not all Presbyterians are 5-point Calvinists, so there is a difference there, as there is also in worship practices. Most Calvinist/Presbyterian worship now is drastically different and degraded (in my view and others') from that which prevailed during the height of the Second Reformation, particularly among the Scots Presbys and English Puritans, who sang only Psalms and rejected instruments. They also rejected "holy days" (holidays) like Christmas, Easter etc. as being unbiblical holdovers from Catholicism. A few scattered churches and denominations still cling to these, but they are small groups and far between. For about the last 150-200 years, most of even the so-called "conservative" denominations have been busy adopting the popular, glitz and entertainment oriented styles typical of Pentecostals, non-denoms, and independent Bible churches. Hope that made some sense for you.

 

[puriteen18]

I wonder what the services are like. I don't think that they are very liturgical like Eastern Orthodox. (I am Antiochian Eastern Orthodox). How do Calvinists/Presbyterians worship?

Well, for starter's Calvinists believe that worship (like all other things) must be in keeping with the Bible and early Church practice.

Many times the ladies of stricter and more traditional Calvinist churches wear
headcoverings during worship, which was once common practice.

We hold that there is only one Holy Day and we call that the LORD's Day, Sunday. However, traditionally there are in Calvinist Churches what we call 'days of observance' or 'feast days'.

There are four of these:

The Feast of the Nativity of our LORD
The Feast of the Ressurection of our LORD
The Feast of the Ascension of our LORD
The Pentecostal Feast

These are all celebrated on LORD's Day.

The Week of the Passion of our LORD is also traditionally observed, which includes The Day of His Entry (Palm Sunday), Maundy Thursday, and Good Friday.

Originally Calvinists met every day of the week: twice of LORD's Day (morning and evening), once in the morning of every week day for prayer services with shorter sermons, and a special time was set for a service that primarily focused on the study of the Word on Wednesday.

Now though, most of us (if not all) only keep the two LORD's Day services and Mid-week (Wednesday) service for public worship.

Calvinists do not traditionally observe church seasons like Lent and Advent, although the congregation does prepare for feast days.

As for the liturgy of the individual service, there is basically a system of two parts: 'the Service of the Word' and 'the Service of the Table'. In these two are included three 'cycles': the Isaianic, the Mosaic, and the Emmaus cycle.

Service usually follow a pattern similiar to this:

(The Service of the Word)
The Isaianic Cycle

-A Lesson (reading) from Scripture (an elder or sometimes a deacon)
-The Commandments and the Summary of the Law
-Public Confession of Sin (Congregation aloud)
-Private Confession of Sin (Congregation in silent prayer)
-Assurance of Pardon (Pastoring Minister)
-The Singing of Psalms, and later including Hymns

The Mosaic Cycle

-Prayer for Illumination (Pastoring Minister)
-Scripture Text for Sermon
-Sermon
-A Psalm in response to the Sermon (Congregation)
-The Collection of Tithes and Offerings

(The Service of the Table)
The Emmaus Cycle
-Prayer of Intercession (Pastoring Minister)
-The Apostle's or Nicean Creed, sometimes sang (Congregation)
-The Words of Institutoion of our LORD's Supper (Pastoring Minister)
-Exhortation (Pastoring Minister)
-Communion or 'the Celebration of the Table'
-A Psalm (Congregation)
-The Benediction (Pastoring Minister)

The Isaianic Cycle is taken from Isaiah 6 when Isaiah was brought into God's presence and have his sin purged from him. In the Mosaic Cycle we seek for God to speak to us as He did to Moses in the burning bush. In the Emmaus Cycle Christ is made known to us in Communion just as He was to His disciples in Emmaus.

Calvinists believe that Christ, altought not physcally, is spiritually present in the Sacrament of the His Table. Though the elements stay what they are He is somehow made present and brings graces and benefits to the believer. Sometimes the unregernerate are dismissed at the close of the Service of the Word so that it will be less likely for someone who is unworthy to take part fo the Supper. If an unbeliever takes the Supper, he drinks down condemnation not discerning the LORD's Body.

And I think thats about it.

 

[LynneClomina]

What denomonation is that?

Apostolic Church of Pentecost. www.acop.ca

every church is a little different in style though.

we are also increasingly affiliated with NCMI (New Covanent Ministries International) which is not a denomination. www.ncmi.net

 

[puriteen18]

Almost forgot. Here's a link that might eb of help:

The Genevan Book of Order 1556
http://www.swrb.com/newslett/actualnls/GBO_ch00.htm


And another thing that is very important and unique to Calvinist worship is family worship.

To Calvinists the family is just a little church, with the father as 'pastor', the mother as an aid to him, and the children as a congregation. So too, was there services held in the family.

Every moring started off with the gathering of the family together for the reading of Scripture and singing of Psalms and many times evenings were spent in a similiar fashion.

The thing that shock most people about the family worship of Calvinists is the music it included. While, in the Church, music was restricted to simple unision psalm-singing, at the home the family (who following the practice of the day would have been well trained in music) sang beautiful and manytimes even polyphonic settings of the Psalms. Some of the most wonderful Psalm settings were by the Calvinist composer Claude Goudimel. If you click on my speaker icon you can actually hear his setting of the 72th Psalm. You really should hear it; it is just beautiful.

Another thing is that there was alot more use of musical instruments in family worship than in the church.

There is a painting by Jan Barentsz Muyckens of an old Calvinist Couple in their sober black and white attire, with the man at the clavichord and the wife with a Psalter.

We know that John Bunyan played both the flute and viol, and make mention of many instruments in his works. Oliver Cromwell played the viol at private worship and even had a choir to sing the Latin motets of the English composer Richard Deering. And even the staunch New England Puritans had in their pocessions spinets and lutes so to aid and accompany the family part-singing.

I know what I have said hear has more to do with the historical side of things, but I think that it is important not to just take the stereotype of the history books that Calvinists were opposed to music, when the very contrary is true. It was not that they hated music; they just knew its proper place.

Family or Private worship is still part of the uniqueness of modern Calvinists. We do keep private worship in our homes. Study, singing, confession, and prayer are all had.

Here is another link that may be helpful. It is the Directory for Family Worship: http://www.pcea.asn.au/wes_fami.html

Again, I hope I have been helpful.

 

[Bro. Gabriel]

I'm a born and raised Southern Baptist, and I adhere to the Theological ideas of John Calvin. I don't really believe he "created" anything, I think Paul and Peter did a good enough job of explaining it, but Calvin was instrumental in helping the newly reformed mainstream Church understand it all.

Calvinism does not negate free will whatsoever. In fact, it makes our roles as Believers all the more fundamentally important. God calls upon people through the conviction of the Holy Spirit, and last time I checked, the Holy Spirit lives in each of us as Believers.

It is our duty and greatest goal in life to spread the Gospel and make Disciples of all nations, so as to fulfill God's perfect plan and will for the world. Without Believers, there would be no one going to Heaven.. God doesn't just magically make people saved, He uses the Church and faithful to ensure that the Good News is spread throughout the world and that his Elect are brought home, through the power and work of the Holy Spirit. This is why Missions and Evangelism is so important, and why Discipleship of Believers is also pivotal - we have to understand the importance of our calling!!!

Anyone who doesn't believe in God's election of Grace obviously hasn't studied any of the Bible very seriously or objectively at all. This is a main reason why I'm enrolled at the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville next fall, as they are 5-Point Calvinist in Theology.

I think Limited Atonement is a problem for some people because they don't understand it. Just look at John 3:16 and it is quite clear! "Whosoever believes in Him" shall not perish, not "Everyone" shall not perish. So simple.


mtgapooLJCbwy!!!

 

[LynneClomina]

Bro. Gabriel, what are services like at your church?

 

[LynneClomina]

Almost forgot. Here's a link that might eb of help:

The Genevan Book of Order 1556
http://www.swrb.com/newslett/actualnls/GBO_ch00.htm


And another thing that is very important and unique to Calvinist worship is family worship.

To Calvinists the family is just a little church, with the father as 'pastor', the mother as an aid to him, and the children as a congregation. So too, was there services held in the family.

Every moring started off with the gathering of the family together for the reading of Scripture and singing of Psalms and many times evenings were spent in a similiar fashion.

The thing that shock most people about the family worship of Calvinists is the music it included. While, in the Church, music was restricted to simple unision psalm-singing, at the home the family (who following the practice of the day would have been well trained in music) sang beautiful and manytimes even polyphonic settings of the Psalms. Some of the most wonderful Psalm settings were by the Calvinist composer Claude Goudimel. If you click on my speaker icon you can actually hear his setting of the 72th Psalm. You really should hear it; it is just beautiful.

Another thing is that there was alot more use of musical instruments in family worship than in the church.

There is a painting by Jan Barentsz Muyckens of an old Calvinist Couple in their sober black and white attire, with the man at the clavichord and the wife with a Psalter.

We know that John Bunyan played both the flute and viol, and make mention of many instruments in his works. Oliver Cromwell played the viol at private worship and even had a choir to sing the Latin motets of the English composer Richard Deering. And even the staunch New England Puritans had in their pocessions spinets and lutes so to aid and accompany the family part-singing.

I know what I have said hear has more to do with the historical side of things, but I think that it is important not to just take the stereotype of the history books that Calvinists were opposed to music, when the very contrary is true. It was not that they hated music; they just knew its proper place.

Family or Private worship is still part of the uniqueness of modern Calvinists. We do keep private worship in our homes. Study, singing, confession, and prayer are all had.

Here is another link that may be helpful. It is the Directory for Family Worship: http://www.pcea.asn.au/wes_fami.html

Again, I hope I have been helpful.

not all calvinists are like that. my church is not.