What about the breaking of bread?

[RobsBabe]

I know that in the Bible, wine is wine and not grape juice. I know the bread is unleavened (which I guess is a cracker). But how exactly did they eat it then? Was a chunk of bread passed around in the upper room that night and broken by each person? Or were chunks of already-broken bread passed around in a bowl? OR did Jesus break the chunk himself and pass it around? Does it matter?

I know we can be picky when it comes to wine; just wondered if it matters how and in what form we eat the bread. I'm sure there were no little round flat disks back then. Or little Chicklet-shaped pie crust pieces, in the case of Baptists.

I also wonder what you do if someone is allergic to grapes. My aunt goes into anaphylactic shock when consuming grapes in any form. What would the Lutheran church give her as an alternative? Dandelion wine or hard cider or something?

Just things I've been wondering.

 

[Tangible]

RB, there are a few articles related to these questions on the LCMS website.

There are quite a few people who do not normally partake of the wine - alcoholics, allergics, etc. - who perhaps make special arrangements to partake of on drop of sacramental wine in a cup of water or choose not to receive the wine at all. Celiacs and others who cannot partake of wheat in any form are in a similar situation. This is a question that they should take up with their pastors.

Apparently, the consensus is that the Lord's Supper must consist of grape wine and wheat bread. I'm not sure what the basis of this is, and it's not really addressed in scripture as far as I know. Personally, I think there would be some latitude especially in poor, isolated regions of the world - for example, in Africa wheat and grapes are in very short supply, and always imported, however, rice, corn, millet and other grains are daily fare. Likewise, palm wine, banana beer and millet beer are very common. It seems to me that these would be acceptable substitutes, but this goes against the official Lutheran position.

 

[DaRev]

Apparently, the consensus is that the Lord's Supper must consist of grape wine and wheat bread. I'm not sure what the basis of this is, and it's not really addressed in scripture as far as I know. Personally, I think there would be some latitude especially in poor, isolated regions of the world - for example, in Africa wheat and grapes are in very short supply, and always imported, however, rice, corn, millet and other grains are daily fare. Likewise, palm wine, banana beer and millet beer are very common. It seems to me that these would be acceptable substitutes, but this goes against the official Lutheran position.

The elements of grape wine and bread are used in the Lord's Supper because that is what Christ used to institute the sacrament. Who are we to make substitutes?

We know from clear scripture that the cup contained grape wine. As to what grain was used in the bread, that isn't so clear. But we do know it was unleavened. Whether it was wheat or barley or whatever else may have been available in 1st century Palestine, we don't know for sure.

 

[Melethiel]

I know a parish that had a person with Celiac as a member, so they had a few wafers for her made out of rice flour.

 

[Tangible]

It seems like simple bread and wine were probably the most ubiquitous food items at that time and place. It would be very like God for Jesus to use the most humble and common parts of the seder meal to hide himself in. To me, using only wheat bread and grape wine in locations where they are expensive and exotic looses this dimension of the sacrament.

However, I am more than happy to bow to those who are more knowledgeable in this area than I am.

 

[QuiltAngel]

We know that alcoholics will use tincture method or there is grape juice available for them, but RobsBabe brings up a good point. What about those who are allergic to grapes of any form, much less has a life threatening reaction?

 

[RobsBabe]

I would imagine rice flour would be as good as any flour, since I'm not sure wheat was used in Bible times. I do wonder, though, why we don't "break bread"--literally--which stands for Christ's broken body. We just kind of pass
it around already rolled and cut out, which I assume is for the sake of time (or to keep people from handling it too
much?). I looked on the lcms website but didn't see that addressed. But I might google it and find something.

My aunt is Catholic, and from what I understand from her, she eats the bread and the priest drinks all the wine. I would think he'd be sauced by the end of the service, but I guess they're all used to it. At least she doesn't go into anaphylactic shock there.

I guess the law is okay with underaged kids drinking a sip of wine?

 

[Insubres]

The Orthodox churches use leavened bread and put them in the wine, when people recieve the eucharist they are given it in a spoon.

YouTube - Preparation of the Holy Eucharist (Arabic / English)

 

[RobsBabe]

Nuts. The filter my husband put in place for the kids is blocking my access to YouTube. I'll have to figure how to unblock it. Well, it sounds like an interesting video, anyway.

I've heard of intinction, but never the spoon.

I grew up eating tiny squares of cooked pie crust and shot glasses of Welch's Grape Juice. In one church after the service, the elderly lady who cleaned up the sanctuary would stuff her face with the leftover pie crust, and send the juice home with my kids.

 

[Insubres]

Nuts. The filter my husband put in place for the kids is blocking my access to YouTube. I'll have to figure how to unblock it. Well, it sounds like an interesting video, anyway.

I've heard of intinction, but never the spoon.

I grew up eating tiny squares of cooked pie crust and shot glasses of Welch's Grape Juice. In one church after the service, the elderly lady who cleaned up the sanctuary would stuff her face with the leftover pie crust, and send the juice home with my kids.

I've had the little "pie crust pills," those always seemed really weird to me. I would like to find a church that uses real bread and wine (I'm some kind weird Eastern Protestant or something I guess).

That sounds kinda weird about the lady, was she supposed to do that? Those things are so unpalatable I can't imagine anyone wanting to do that.

 

[DaRev]

We know that alcoholics will use tincture method or there is grape juice available for them, but RobsBabe brings up a good point. What about those who are allergic to grapes of any form, much less has a life threatening reaction?

Unlike baptism, the Lord's Supper is not necessary for salvation. If someone is allergic to grapes, they could forego the blood of Christ and simply receive in the one kind.

 

[DaRev]

It seems like simple bread and wine were probably the most ubiquitous food items at that time and place. It would be very like God for Jesus to use the most humble and common parts of the seder meal to hide himself in. To me, using only wheat bread and grape wine in locations where they are expensive and exotic looses this dimension of the sacrament.

However, I am more than happy to bow to those who are more knowledgeable in this area than I am.

But who are we to change that which Christ Himself has ordained?

 

[filosofer]

There are other wines besides grape.

 

[Insubres]

There are other wines besides grape.

I'm imagining using mead (honey wine) and that just seems really weird.

 

[RobsBabe]

Did Jesus use grape wine because it looked like blood? (Assuming he didn't have white grape wine.) Or is it because grapes were so prevalent then and there? Probably not a lot of apple trees, so hard cider was out. Clearly, he said "fruit of the vine" and not "fruit off the tree" but I wonder if that is just because grapes were all over the place. Like olive oil rather than corn oil. They had olives so that's what they used.

But I know hard cider doesn't look remotely like blood. I guess not drinking the wine at all would be okay. If it's just about the color, then cranberries and cherries and other berries would work.

NEVER heard of honey wine. They did have a lot of honey!

 

[DaRev]

There are other wines besides grape.

And the relevency of that is...?

 

[DaRev]

Did Jesus use grape wine because it looked like blood? (Assuming he didn't have white grape wine.) Or is it because grapes were so prevalent then and there? Probably not a lot of apple trees, so hard cider was out. Clearly, he said "fruit of the vine" and not "fruit off the tree" but I wonder if that is just because grapes were all over the place. Like olive oil rather than corn oil. They had olives so that's what they used.

But I know hard cider doesn't look remotely like blood. I guess not drinking the wine at all would be okay. If it's just about the color, then cranberries and cherries and other berries would work.

NEVER heard of honey wine. They did have a lot of honey!

Most likely because of the prevalency of grapes, but why He used it isn't the issue. The fact that is what He used to institute the sacrament is.

 

[RobsBabe]

Most likely because of the prevalency of grapes, but why He used it isn't the issue. The fact that is what He used to institute the sacrament is.

So kind of "better safe than sorry" sort of thing?

Please don't think I'm trying to substitute French Fries and Coke or something, for communion. I grew up the "grapes only" also. But as communion was merely a commemoration, people thought nothing of abstaining if there was an allergy. Nobody I've met is as allergic as my aunt, though.

I would like to know why the common cup. Seems like with H1N1 and such things, people would shrink back from that. I didn't read of Jesus doing any such thing... ??

 

[QuiltAngel]

Matt. 26:27 And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he gave it to them, saying, “Drink of it, all of you,
Matt. 26:28 for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.
Matt. 26:29 I tell you I will not drink again of this fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father’s kingdom.” --ESV

We take from these verses that it is one cup.

The concerns regarding the common cup are fairly new. You can find research that supports both positions regarding transfer if disease. Some say it does, others say it does not. Many churches have gone with giving a choice. I much prefer the common cup.

One thing that I have learned in my class this summer is that with the advancement of processing foods, that our bodies have lost the need to fight off many infections. Our prof has talked about how in past times, we were able to fight off many more diseases naturally than we do now. I have found that interesting as well as explains why people shared things regarding food back then. They did not have the food storage like now, so were probably eating foods that contained bacteria, yet, since that was the norm, the digestic acids were able to neutralize and fight off those bacterias.

 

[QuiltAngel]

Double post, sorry.