What About Progressive Sanctification?

Bible Highlighter · Nov 10, 2020

RickReads said:
More false accusations. FYI, I type slow but I read fast and I read all your verses. They did nothing for your argument.

As for John 6:29, it says the "work" is to believe. Your statement saying that it validates works for salvation is grossly erroneous. But at least you have finally admitted that you are believing in works for your salvation.

Rick: 2 Corinthians 7:1 says perfecting holiness in the fear of God. Does this sound like an overnight and instant thing? From my perspective, this sounds like it takes a little time to perfect something. If I am perfecting a piece of artwork I am working on, this does not sound like a quick 1 hour job. It sounds like I may take a longer time to do such a work. Why? Because I am perfecting something.

Hebrews 13 says, “the God of peace... Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is well pleasing in his sight,” This again does not sound like a quick fix. Are you perfect in every good work to do His will, Rick? If not, then you need to progressively move towards that goal.

Matthew 5:6 says, “Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.”

Have you ever hungered and or thirsted after righteousness, Rick?

JAL · Nov 10, 2020

I just joined the thread, haven't done all the reading.

SimpleLiving2019 said:
God is continually bringing my ways in closer alignment to his ways....I wasn’t aware this was controversial. Doesn’t every born again believer experience this? It has to be so.

Wow. I had the same reaction. I thought gradual sanctification was virtually a unanimous concept in evangelical churches. Isn't that what most sermons are aimed to do? Move us to higher levels of spiritual maturity, holiness, obedience and so forth?

Maybe the terminology varies, but isn't the concept universal?

SimpleLiving2019 · Nov 10, 2020

JAL said:
I just joined the thread, haven't done all the reading.

Wow. I had the same reaction. I thought gradual sanctification was virtually a unanimous concept in evangelical churches. Isn't that what most sermons are aimed to do? Move us to higher levels of spiritual maturity, holiness, obedience and so forth?

Maybe the terminology varies, but isn't the concept universal?

Perhaps it is just the terminology, because every born again believer would experience this without exception.

JAL · Nov 10, 2020

RickReads said:
A lot of things have happened for SimpleLiving2019 over the 12 years but his level of sanctification has neither increased or decreased. In scripture, it`s just sanctified or not. Jesus only needs to do it once.

That is completely incorrect in my view. Sanctification in my understanding is actually quantitative, quantifiable, and so on. I'm undecided whether I want to debate that issue here, but I've certainly defended that position in the past.

A little more clarity. Sanctification and revival are the same thing in my view. Sanctification proceeds by outpourings of the Spirit (revivals) until the human heart is filled full of the Holy Spirit (won't be fully achieved in this life). Thus the principal work of the church is to wait upon the Lord in prayer and praise for these sanctifying outpourings - which is the whole point of the Galatian epistle, and the reason for Paul being furious with them for regressing from this practice.

JAL · Nov 10, 2020

SimpleLiving2019 said:
Perhaps it is just the terminology, because every born again believer would experience this without exception.

Agreed.

JAL · Nov 10, 2020

Aren' these two statements in conflict?

RickReads said:
A lot of things have happened for SimpleLiving2019 over the 12 years but his level of sanctification has neither increased or decreased. In scripture, it`s just sanctified or not. Jesus only needs to do it once.

RickReads said:
Nothing there says "progressive" and anytime sanctification is mentioned it is something that God is doing, not you.

If He only needs to do it once, why is He sanctifying us?

RickReads · Nov 10, 2020

JAL said:
Aren' these two statements in conflict?

If He only needs to do it once, why is He sanctifying us?

Once I cure the meat it will continue preserving after, I don`t have to keep repeating the process.

I shake the dirt off

RickReads · Nov 11, 2020

Bible Highlighter said:
Rick: 2 Corinthians 7:1 says perfecting holiness in the fear of God. Does this sound like an overnight and instant thing? From my perspective, this sounds like it takes a little time to perfect something. If I am perfecting a piece of artwork I am working on, this does not sound like a quick 1 hour job. It sounds like I may take a longer time to do such a work. Why? Because I am perfecting something.

Hebrews 13 says, “the God of peace... Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is well pleasing in his sight,” This again does not sound like a quick fix. Are you perfect in every good work to do His will, Rick? If not, then you need to progressively move towards that goal.

Matthew 5:6 says, “Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.”

Have you ever hungered and or thirsted after righteousness, Rick?

Jesus didn`t come to save the righteous.

I shake the dirt off.

RickReads · Nov 11, 2020

BNR32FAN said:
Is English a second language for you? Because you don’t seem to understand it very well.

Jesus didn`t come to save the righteous.

I shake the dirt off.

Bible Highlighter · Nov 11, 2020

RickReads said:
Jesus didn`t come to save the righteous.

I shake the dirt off.

Why? Because they that are whole do not need a physician. Jesus is the physician who called sinners to repentance. Sin is the problem. Jesus is the cure for their sin problem. Jesus can forgive sin and help them to overcome their sin. Romans 13:14 says put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ and fulfill not the lusts of the flesh.

Anyways, you really are not addressing a teaching of our Lord Jesus Christ. He said blessed are they who hunger and thirst for righteousness. Do you just reject these words from our Lord because you don't like them? How do you interpret them as fitting in with your belief? How can you be filled for hungering and thirsting after righteousness? Do you even believe in hungering and thirsting after righteousness? By what you said so far, I don't see how that is possible. Yet, I have no problem believing these words from the Lord.

RickReads · Nov 11, 2020

Bible Highlighter said:
Why? Because they that are whole do not need a physician. Jesus is the physician who called sinners to repentance. Sin is the problem. Jesus is the cure for their sin problem. Jesus can forgive sin and help them to overcome their sin. Romans 13:14 says put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ and fulfill not the lusts of the flesh.

Anyways, you really are not addressing a teaching of our Lord Jesus Christ. He said blessed are they who hunger and thirst for righteousness. Do you just reject these words from our Lord because you don't like them? How do you interpret them as fitting in with your belief? How can you be filled for hungering and thirsting after righteousness? Do you even believe in hungering and thirsting after righteousness? By what you said so far, I don't see how that is possible. Yet, I have no problem believing these words from the Lord.

For all your cut and paste dumping you really have no comprehension of the gospel. The saying of Jesus that I reference is a legitimate case of sarcasm on the part of Jesus. The people He was talking about were not righteous, they just thought they were. Goodbye.

Bible Highlighter · Nov 11, 2020

RickReads said:
For all your cut and paste dumping you really have no comprehension of the gospel.

It's called being a good Berean and quoting Scripture.
And the problem is that you are not explaining any of the verses in how they work in your belief that cannot be supported by the Bible.

You said:
The saying of Jesus that I reference is a legitimate case of sarcasm on the part of Jesus. The people He was talking about were not righteous, they just thought they were. Goodbye.

Wow. Really? Where did you get that from reading the context?
Care to share the passage? My guess is that you don't have one, and you are just inserting that idea with your own false thinking.

Anyways, to make matters worse for you, you said Jesus was using sarcasm. This is not good to say that Jesus used sarcasm. For sarcasm is a form of lying. Granted, it is a form of lying where the person knows you are lying in a joking way. But Jesus could not lie because lying is a sin. Jesus is GOD and He is holy and separate from sinners.

JAL · Nov 11, 2020

RickReads said:
Once I cure the meat it will continue preserving after, I don`t have to keep repeating the process.

I shake the dirt off

Shake the dirt off? With meat, dirt is an externality and thus doesn't indicate whether the meat itself is in a healthy state. It is thus irrelevant to this conversation. Not a valid analogy, therefore. If the meat is already healthy, you wouldn't need to continue trying to MAKE it healthy. Scripture tells us we are NOT fully healthy (not fully sanctified) and thus exhorts to do what is necessary to BECOME fully healthy. Sanctification is therefore progressive.

Noxot · Nov 11, 2020

People hate freedom because they want guarantees. God will not save us unless we want to be saved. Perhaps some are favored by God because their souls pre-existed. so whatever deal God has with such Souls is none of my business. What I do know is that some came unwillingly to this world out of Hope. If Jesus came then so too would his servants. but the official church does not believe in the pre-existence of souls even though it seems to me to be very clear.

There are souls in this world that came straight out of hell and this is their chance to be saved by Christ in this life.

zoidar · Nov 11, 2020

Bible Highlighter said:
Being on fire is different from growing in maturity as we learn more about God's Word. One can be on fire, but if they are not informed properly of how to act upon God's Word, they are like a canon from the colonial days ready to fire with no pin point accuracy. Anyways, what I meant is that Progressive Sanctification is obvious from reading the Scriptures. The verses I have shown makes this fact obvious.

Thanks for being clear with what you mean!

zoidar · Nov 11, 2020

BNR32FAN said:
Ahh. I see. So what happens if we do kill, rape, and steal and do all sorts of evil? Is such a person abiding in Christ? Does Jesus forgive the sins of those who don’t abide in Him? In order to receive forgiveness of our sins we must repent and turn back to Christ. We must hear and follow to be His sheep.

If you are born again you don't do despicable acts like rape and murder. You have a new nature. You can fail in many other ways though, like sexual immorality, fornication is not that uncommon among believers. Of course a born again believer can fall into temptation and steal.

BNR32FAN · Nov 11, 2020

RickReads said:
For all your cut and paste dumping you really have no comprehension of the gospel. The saying of Jesus that I reference is a legitimate case of sarcasm on the part of Jesus. The people He was talking about were not righteous, they just thought they were. Goodbye.

This coming from a person who all the sudden doesn’t understand simple questions when he’s provided scriptures that refute his theology and can’t explain how these scriptures can be true without contradicting his theology.

BNR32FAN · Nov 11, 2020

zoidar said:
If you are born again you don't do despicable acts like rape and murder. You have a new nature. You can fail in many other ways though, like sexual immorality, fornication is not that uncommon among believers. Of course a born again believer can fall into temptation and steal.

Yes I would agree a born again person won’t do these things but that doesn’t mean they can’t do them. We’re only born again if we’re walking in the Spirit. When we submit to temptation we’re not born again we’re back to our old sinful self that we were before we were born again. Children of God can quickly become sons of disobedience. That’s what Paul is saying from Ephesians 4:17 on into Ephesians 5:21.

zoidar · Nov 11, 2020

BNR32FAN said:
Yes I would agree a born again person won’t do these things but that doesn’t mean they can’t do them. We’re only born again if we’re walking in the Spirit. When we submit to temptation we’re not born again we’re back to our old sinful self that we were before we were born again. Children of God can quickly become sons of disobedience. That’s what Paul is saying from Ephesians 4:17 on into Ephesians 5:21.

That belief sounds to me to give you a very insecure place in faith, that we are moving in and out of salvation, if that is what you mean. I believe when you become a child of God, you are a child of God, until you are completely cut off the tree. As I understand it we are born again once. I don't believe you lose salvation falling for a temptation, like stealing something from work.

I'm not clear about what happens if a born again believer slides back into living in sin, like fornication. Is he saved while doing this? I doubt it. Good question though, maybe someone has a good answer.

BNR32FAN · Nov 11, 2020

zoidar said:
That belief sounds to me to give you a very insecure place in faith, that we are moving in and out of salvation, if that is what you mean. I believe when you become a child of God, you are a child of God, until you are completely cut off the tree. As I understand it we are born again once. I don't believe you lose salvation falling for a temptation, like stealing something from work.

I'm not clear about what happens if a born again believer slides back into living in sin, like fornication. Is he saved while doing this? Good question, someone maybe someone has a good answer.

The 7 churches in Asia Minor were not murdering or raping people and Jesus told them they must repent or He would remove their lamp stand and spit them out of His mouth etc. the parable of the wedding feast, the 10 virgins, and many other of Jesus’ parables are about being prepared for His return. We must be in a repentant state when He returns for we know not when the master of the house will return.

What About Progressive Sanctification?

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