What about Hebrews 6: 4-6 ?

1an said:

I don't think you know who Jesus was from the foundation of the earth.

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You're wrong.

1an said:

So do you think you can deny the creator and get away with it?

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Where did I say anything about denying the Creator - and even if I were to do that, why would I want to "get away with it"?
What I said was that Peter denied Jesus - a fact recorded in the Gospels - and was forgiven and restored by Jesus, John 21.

Yes, there is one God, who is Triune - Father, Son and Holy Spirit. 3 persons, one God.
Father, Son and Spirit are one but they are not the same. The Son is not the Father, the Spirit is not the Son.
Jesus himself said that whoever spoke against the Son would be forgiven, but whoever spoke against the Spirit would not be. This shows that the Spirit and the Son are individuals - otherwise his words wouldn't make sense.

And I'm not even sure what this has to do with Hebrews 6.

RickReads said:

2 Timothy 3:16
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

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That does not mean you take every word of God as written to you.

Strong in Him said:

You're wrong.



Where did I say anything about denying the Creator - and even if I were to do that, why would I want to "get away with it"?
What I said was that Peter denied Jesus - a fact recorded in the Gospels - and was forgiven and restored by Jesus, John 21.

Yes, there is one God, who is Triune - Father, Son and Holy Spirit. 3 persons, one God.
Father, Son and Spirit are one but they are not the same. The Son is not the Father, the Spirit is not the Son.
Jesus himself said that whoever spoke against the Son would be forgiven, but whoever spoke against the Spirit would not be. This shows that the Spirit and the Son are individuals - otherwise his words wouldn't make sense.

And I'm not even sure what this has to do with Hebrews 6.

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It was the pre-incarnate Jesus who created the heavens and the earth. See the first 14 verses of John's gospel.

1an said:

It was the pre-incarnate Jesus who created the heavens and the earth. See the first 14 verses of John's gospel.

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Not exactly; it says THROUGH him all things were made.
Hebrews 1:2 says the same thing. Colossians 1:16 says IN him, all things were created.

Genesis 1 says that God spoke - "let there be light" and so on - and it happened. Jesus is the Word, John 1:1-2, so it makes sense that when God spoke and the world was created, it was created THROUGH Jesus.

Strong in Him said:

I know.



Neither, I'm sure, would most Christians.
But that wasn't my point. Jesus said in Matthew 12 that whoever says a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever blasphemes the Spirit, won't.
If they had been the same, Jesus would have said, "anyone who speaks against me IS blaspheming the Spirit - and cannot be forgiven. But he didn't".



No, not really.
Peter had followed Jesus for 3 years. He had seen miracles, he had been sent out to drive out demons, he had seen the transfiguration and at least 2 people raised from the dead, he had walked on water. He had received a special revelation that Jesus was the Christ, the Son of God.
Jesus said that Peter was going to deny him. Peter said, "not me; even if I die, I won't deny you". Yet when he was asked, 3 times, "surely you were with Jesus?", he denied it, 3 x with curses.

It doesn't matter if it was his belief.
You said that whoever denies Jesus blasphemes the Spirit and cannot be forgiven- Peter denied Jesus, and was forgiven.

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The point I am making is that to deny Jesus as Peter did is to deny Yahweh himself. Not something to be recommended, yet people seem to make light of it.

You agree Jesus is God (Yahweh), and you gave three verses in support of that. There are many more and I have added a few.

These are what you quoted:-
God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom (Jesus) also he made the worlds; (Heb 1:1-2 KJV)

For by him (Jesus) were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him, all things consist. (Col 1:16-17 KJV) [Jesus is Yahweh's name on earth.]

Genesis 1 says that God spoke - "let there be light" and so on - and it happened. Jesus is the Word, John 1:1-2, so it makes sense that when God spoke and the world was created, it was created THROUGH Jesus.

Here are a few more:
Now unto the King eternal (Jesus), immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory forever and ever. Amen. (1 Timothy 1:17 KJV)

And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory. (1 Timothy 3:16 KJV)

Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and Saviour Jesus Christ; (Titus 2:13 KJV)

Jesus Christ the same yesterday, today, and forever. (Hebrews 13:8 KJV)

Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servant's fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence. (John 18:36 KJV)

And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name is written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS. (Revelation 19:16 KJV)
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We know Jesus is God in the flesh, we know that God is Spirit, and we know the Father indwelt Jesus. God is One. To deny Jesus is to deny God himself. See below.

Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake. (Joh 14:11 KJV)

To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. (2Co 5:19 KJV)

What started this conversation is the light-hearted way in which people treated Peter's blasphemy. Do you not believe that to deny Jesus is a denial of God? A very serious offence indeed.

So although Jesus forgave Peter, who was very special to him, do you think this gives us a licence to do what Peter did?
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RickReads said:

It also doesn`t mean you disregard the majority of the scriptures because they were written to the Jews.

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That is why Paul instructs us to rightly divide the word of truth (2 Timothy 2:15)

1an said:

So although Jesus forgave Peter, who was very special to him, do you think this gives us a licence to do what Peter did?
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No of course not; I have never said that, nor would I recommend it.

The reason I brought up Peter's denial was because, I think it was you who said, that if a person denies Jesus they are also denying the Holy Spirit; which is blasphemy and the unforgiveable sin.
I said that is denying Jesus was unforgiveable blasphemy, Peter would not have been forgiven - because that's what he did. And he didn't even just say "I don't know him" - he said it 3 times, and called down curses upon himself.
YET, Jesus forgave and restore him.

That's not making light of Peter's blasphemy; that's emphasising, and magnifying, God's amazing grace and mercy.
It also shows that denying Jesus is NOT the same as denying/blaspheming the Spirit.

RickReads said:

All part of the same teaching. Divide doesn`t mean to disregard.

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For example, you don't take instructions in Genesis 17:14 as instructions to you correct?

You are dividing it without disregarding it.

Likewise, Hebrews 6:4-6 should be taken in the same manner.

Guojing said:

For example, you don't take instructions in Genesis 17:14 as instructions to you correct?

You are dividing it without disregarding it.

Likewise, Hebrews 6:4-6 should be taken in the same manner.

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Since the NT imagery has shifted to the circumcision of the heart I certainly would.

~Cassia~ said:

Since the NT imagery has shifted to the circumcision of the heart I certainly would.

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That is correct, you are rightly dividing the word, but you are certainly not disregarding that Genesis 17:14 was instructions to a different group at a different time, would you agree?

Guojing said:

That is correct, you are rightly dividing the word, but you are certainly not disregarding that Genesis 17:14 was instructions to a different group at a different time, would you agree?

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It was at one time but it’s moved past that. It is what it is.

Guojing said:

For example, you don't take instructions in Genesis 17:14 as instructions to you correct?

You are dividing it without disregarding it.

Likewise, Hebrews 6:4-6 should be taken in the same manner.

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Divide and separate like a detective in a murder case examining and separating all the evidence.
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~Cassia~ said:

It was at one time but it’s moved past that. It is what it is.

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So if you think of Hebrews as written to the Jews from the nation of Israel who will be facing the Tribulation and the temptation to take the mark of the beast, would the meaning of Hebrews 6:4-6 become clearer to you?

Guojing said:

So if you think of Hebrews written to the Jews from the nation of Israel who will be facing the Tribulation and the temptation to take the mark of the beast, would the meaning of Hebrews 6:4-6 become clearer to you?

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The other thing that’s moved on in typology is Israel as a nation transformed into individuals led by Christ thru the Holy Spirit.