What about Divorse?

[Alie28]

When is divorse permitted?

From my view of the New Testament divorse is only permitted if a)the unbeliever leaves or b)adultory has occurred.

What about the following instances?
1)Both claim to be Christian, the husband becomes physically abusive, thereby putting his wife in danger. Is she obliged to stay married to him?
2)Both are Christian, husband gets alziemers early in life, it gets so bad he doesnt know who his wife is, is she required to stay faithful to him for another 10 years when he doesnt recognise her? or is she able to find Christian love in another partner?
3)Both claim to be Christian, wife doesn't want to give her husband sex, they married as virgins but she just doesn't enjoy sex with her husband. What are husbands options?

Or in my case...

I married a man, we were/are both Christians, one day he told me he had spent all our money, he couldn't or wouldn't get a job despite being physically able, I supported him for 7 years as he now has no money at all, he lies to me continually about financial matters, so much so that my trust in him is completely destroyed...not sure on the faithfulness front although he claims to have been faithful and wants me back. I don't want this, understandably. I want to believe that one day I may meet someone special and remarry.

Some would say, you made the marriage bed, you lay in it. Would Jesus say this? Sometimes people change. I put everything I had into my marriage and it didn't work, not through lack of my trying. What is left when the trust is gone? Why should the innocent partner have to suffer alone for the rest of their life?

I look forward to your opinions.

 

[P3nguin1]

When is divorse permitted?

From my view of the New Testament divorse is only permitted if a)the unbeliever leaves or b)adultory has occurred.

What about the following instances?
1)Both claim to be Christian, the husband becomes physically abusive, thereby putting his wife in danger. Is she obliged to stay married to him?
2)Both are Christian, husband gets alziemers early in life, it gets so bad he doesnt know who his wife is, is she required to stay faithful to him for another 10 years when he doesnt recognise her? or is she able to find Christian love in another partner?
3)Both claim to be Christian, wife doesn't want to give her husband sex, they married as virgins but she just doesn't enjoy sex with her husband. What are husbands options?

Or in my case...

I married a man, we were/are both Christians, one day he told me he had spent all our money, he couldn't or wouldn't get a job despite being physically able, I supported him for 7 years as he now has no money at all, he lies to me continually about financial matters, so much so that my trust in him is completely destroyed...not sure on the faithfulness front although he claims to have been faithful and wants me back. I don't want this, understandably. I want to believe that one day I may meet someone special and remarry.

Some would say, you made the marriage bed, you lay in it. Would Jesus say this? Sometimes people change. I put everything I had into my marriage and it didn't work, not through lack of my trying. What is left when the trust is gone? Why should the innocent partner have to suffer alone for the rest of their life?

I look forward to your opinions.

I was involved in a situation very similar to yours at one point. My ex-wife lied to me constantly. She would tell me that she paid a bill, or paid the rent when she haden't. I would come home to an eviction notice and she would swear that she had called the bank that day and the check had cleared. I went to the property management company only to find out she never wrote a check. I worked for years to put her through college to get her teaching degree and it took her 3 years after she graduated to actually get her certificate. The agreement that we made was that she would go to school and begin a teaching career, then I would go back to school. I never got the chance because she didn't take the steps required to get her certificate.

She let me down so many times in so many ways that eventually I divorced her.

In the years since I have come to understaqnd that I did the wrong thing. If This situation came up again I would handle it differently.

Divorcing her was a selfish thing to do, and it was a sin. At the time I considerd myself a Christian, but I was not living for Him.

I think that the right thing for me to do would have been to separate from her but not to divorce. I made a promise to her and to God and I broke that promise because I felt I was wronged. The truth of the matter is I married for "better or worse" and the fact that things were "worse" does not entitle me to a divorce.

I understand that it is difficut to live in a situation where you are being lied to about finances. Financial insecurity is a very stressful thing. I think the right thing to do if things are that bad is to separate and try and work things out.

If you separate you are still honoring your marriage vows, you are not out on your own free to pursue other romantic interests, but you are putting yourself in a situation where you can't be hurt (financially) by his lies.

You said "Why should the innocent partner have to suffer alone for the rest of their life?" My reply is: Because you are married to him and God hates divorce. So long as he does not commit adultery you should honor your commitment.

I didn't and I regret it now. I am about to enter into my second marriage and I sit here and wonder "how can Christine (my fiance`) beleive me? I have already broken my word and disobeyed God in one marriage. What makes her think I can do it right this time?"

I just am glad she is willing to take that chance.

 

[Mr.Cheese]

Marriage is a covenant.
Your husband has utterly failed to keep his end of the deal is what it looks like.
I despise divorce. But I also believe that there is a point where the marriage has been forsaken.

 

[Alie28]

Thank you for your comments. It sounds like your first wife was similar to my husband whom I have separated from... not trustworthy, lying about monies etc.

I do find it interesting that you are remarrying when you believe so strongly that your divorsing your wife was the wrong decision. It is interesting that you claim to have taken that course of action because "you didn't know God well enough then". If you don't mind my asking, why are you remarrying another person instead of try to make another go of it with your previous wife, if as you say, you wished that you hadn't divorsed her. I wonder how your fiance feels about your regreting having gotten divorse? Just some questions to ponder, please do not take offense...

I just can't help wondering if you were to go back in time to when you were married to your untrustworthy partner, if you would have taken the same course of action. It is too easy to look back and say "I sinned, I would have done it differently".

 

[WayneH]

Hi Alie........

I have to agree with P3nguin1 on what he is saying.. The Word of God doesn't let Us down - We may not always agree with what God is telling us - many fight him tooth and nail... but the Bible does tell us Divorce is not an option except for the same reasons you wrote about - Adultery and Unyoked....... Remember also - Just because a Christian is married to an Unbeliever - this doesn't mean they can divorce just because they wish to.. The word says if An UNBELIEVER wishes to leave then thats that - though every attempt should still be made by the Believer to reconcile the marriage.. in the end though - once a person made the choice to leave a marriage - thats between them and God how they should proceed in life... The Christian needs to do a lot of talking to God - being in prayer and well and meditation with God.. ONLY HE can determine........ We all sin - we all fall short of the Glory.. that includes divorce among us.. BUT That doesn't Mean God doesn't love us or won't work things out...... in My opinion - looking at your situation - you say your BOTH CHRISTIANS - great - pray....... one of the things I can see needed in your marriage life is forgiveness, your husband has hurt you a great deal.. there willneed to be forgiveness in the marriage.. and Biblically speaking - I would have ot say no..... your situation doesn't allow for a Divorce....

not saying your not working at it - but too many marriage these days are just a convience for some people - once they tire of living with a person - then they can take the easy way out and divorce.. there are many who will not work at their marriage...... When I got married 25 years ago - I made a promise to MY wife - DIVORCE was NOT an OPTION in our lives.. We would have to work things out.. We've had ups and downs - but woudln't change things.. Actually - in MY church - there are only two divorced / remarried couples.. the rest of the church are first marriages.. *note* - there are approx. 150 married couples in the church.......

I do hope things work out - pray and allow God to lead your life - and no ,matter what - God stills loves his children .........

 

[P3nguin1]

Thank you for your comments. It sounds like your first wife was similar to my husband whom I have separated from... not trustworthy, lying about monies etc.

I do find it interesting that you are remarrying when you believe so strongly that your divorsing your wife was the wrong decision. It is interesting that you claim to have taken that course of action because "you didn't know God well enough then". If you don't mind my asking, why are you remarrying another person instead of try to make another go of it with your previous wife, if as you say, you wished that you hadn't divorsed her.

I have spent a lot of time in prayer and discussion over this and I have come to understand that the sin of divorcing my ex can't be "attoned" for by re-marrying her. Interestingly enough, Scripture tells us that we can't go back once divorced:

"1 If a man marries a woman who becomes displeasing to him because he finds something indecent about her, and he writes her a certificate of divorce, gives it to her and sends her from his house, 2 and if after she leaves his house she becomes the wife of another man, 3 and her second husband dislikes her and writes her a certificate of divorce, gives it to her and sends her from his house, or if he dies, 4 then her first husband, who divorced her, is not allowed to marry her again after she has been defiled. That would be detestable in the eyes of the LORD ." Deut. 24:1-4

The sin was committed when I broke the marriage covenant. Re-marrying my ex would not "make things right".

It is a somewaht complicated story but since my divorce I began living with another woman and we have had a child together. Recently I committed my life to Christ and when I evaluated my situation I realized the right thing to do is to marry the woman I am with now. We are abstaining till we are married (March 1st WOOHOO!) and we are both now fully committed to living by God's word.

I spoke about this in another thread but after a long talk with my pastor I came to understand that being repentant does not mean you would take it back if you could. My daughter is a blessing, and I can not honestly say "I wish I haden't divorced my ex" because that would mean I would not be with the wonderful woman I am now and it would also mean my daughter would not exist.

What I can honestly say is "God, I now realize that what I did was wrong. I also understand that I can't change it now. What I can do is promise never to make that mistake again. Please forgive me Lord and bless my new marriage. I was not faithful enough to keep my promise to my first wife, but I will honor this commitment."

God wanted me to honor my first commitment. I let Him down, but through His grace I am forgiven.

I wonder how your fiance feels about your regreting having gotten divorse? Just some questions to ponder, please do not take offense...

No offense at all. She and I have spoken at length about it. She knows that I committed a sin. She knows that I regret all of the sins I have committed. She also knows that I accept that I can't go back (nor do I want to). When Christ was brought an adulterous woman He did not command her to make up for her past sins, nor did He punish her. He just told her to go, and "sin no more". Grace means we are forgiven.

She has known me for 3 years and she has seen the impact Christ has had in my life recently. I think she feels better knowing that I regret it, because it means I will not let it happen again.

Maybe she will answer for herself, she psts here too .

I just can't help wondering if you were to go back in time to when you were married to your untrustworthy partner, if you would have taken the same course of action. It is too easy to look back and say "I sinned, I would have done it differently".

I can honestly say that IF I were in a right place with God then I never would have divorced her for the reasons I did.

That does not mean I WOULD go back if I could. I can not negate the things that have happened in my life since the divorce. I fell in Love, had a child, and I have made a comitment to another woman. I can not break that new comitment in order to honor one that was already broken.

I regret my actions, and I wont make the same mistakes again. At the same time I would not take them back. God does not expect me to. God wants me to honor my current comitment.


Just another example:

Our daugher was conceived because we sinned (we are not married). I have asked forgiveness for that sin and we are sinning no more. Does this mean I have to wish I never comitted the sin? That would mean my daugher never existed. I will never say anything that can be taken to mean I wish she was not born. Never. We can be repentant without wanting to take the actions back.

The sin is done, God has forgiven me.

Sorry to de-rail your thread. Let me put it this way:

If, for some reason, my new wife began lying to me and it was as bad as it was with my ex I would separate from her. I would do everything possible to save the marriage. If it couldn't be saved then I would remain separated from her until we could fix things. Eventually one of 2 things would happen:

1. We would resolve the situation
2. She would divorce me.

Either way I would do everything I could to honor my word.

 

[Alie28]

I guess another issue to ponder is the definition of "unfaithfulness".

I looked it up on the dictionary and it has the following meanings:

1.Not adhering to promises, obligations, or allegiances; disloyal.

2.Not true or constant to one's sexual partner. Not true to one's spouse; guilty of adultery. Not justly representing or reflecting the original; inaccurate.

...Hence faithfulness in marriage is more than sex.

May I just add a little more about my situation...

I have a 12 week old son from my husband. When I am 36 weeks pregnant I find out I have clamydia. I am told there is a chance that my husband could have passed this on to me before 7 years ago when we first became intimate as it is a silent disease and often has no symptoms and can live in one's system for a long time undetected, hence I cannot assume that he has been unfaithful sexually, as I say, he claims he has been sexually faithfull, however he has lied about many other issues, hence I guess I will never know.

When I am in hospital having the baby, my midwife (midwives deliver babies in my country) acts strangely towards my husband. Two days later she claims that my husband touched her in an inappropriate way during the delivery, she claims he put both hands on her hips, ran one hand down her thigh and cupped her bottom. Of course my husband denies these allegations, just as he has denied the monies going missing etc. He claims that it was dark, in the delivery suite, and he bumped into her by mistake, he pushed himself away but did not touch her below her waste. I tend to believe the midwife who has been in midwifery for over 20 years and stresses that nothing like that has happened to her in her profession.

My husband is unreliable, unstable, dishonest and I want a better life for myself and my son. I don't believe a kind loving God would want me to live with him for the rest of my life.

 

[P3nguin1]

I guess another issue to ponder is the definition of "unfaithfulness".

I looked it up on the dictionary and it has the following meanings:

1.Not adhering to promises, obligations, or allegiances; disloyal.

2.Not true or constant to one's sexual partner. Not true to one's spouse; guilty of adultery. Not justly representing or reflecting the original; inaccurate.

...Hence faithfulness in marriage is more than sex.

Interesting point. I never thought of it in that manner. I find it interesting that Christ gave "marital unfaithfulness" as grounds for divorce when he could have said "adultery"

I wonder why the distinction.....

 

[Svt4Him]

1)Both claim to be Christian, the husband becomes physically abusive, thereby putting his wife in danger. Is she obliged to stay married to him?

No

2)Both are Christian, husband gets alziemers early in life, it gets so bad he doesnt know who his wife is, is she required to stay faithful to him for another 10 years when he doesnt recognise her? or is she able to find Christian love in another partner?

Would this be the sickness part of "In sickness and in health"?

3)Both claim to be Christian, wife doesn't want to give her husband sex, they married as virgins but she just doesn't enjoy sex with her husband. What are husbands options?

Good question. I almost got divorced over this, but then something happened to my wife and I.

I married a man, we were/are both Christians, one day he told me he had spent all our money, he couldn't or wouldn't get a job despite being physically able, I supported him for 7 years as he now has no money at all, he lies to me continually about financial matters, so much so that my trust in him is completely destroyed...not sure on the faithfulness front although he claims to have been faithful and wants me back. I don't want this, understandably. I want to believe that one day I may meet someone special and remarry.

That's a hard place to be in. The grass may be greener, but statistically it's not. That said, what would I do? Well, are you members of a church?

 

[JillLars]

I would suggest counseling before you make any moves, it seems as though your husband has a serious problem, which could possibly be helped through counseling. I would suggest not making any rash decisions. Marriage is a covenant and you shouldn't be willing to let it go without a fight.

 

[Karl - Liberal Backslider]

Interesting point. I never thought of it in that manner. I find it interesting that Christ gave "marital unfaithfulness" as grounds for divorce when he could have said "adultery"

I wonder why the distinction.....

Well, strictly speaking, He couldn't have said either, because He spoke in Aramaic, not English. When you translate from one language to another, you often find there are no exact correlations. There may well be no exact equivalence of the Aramaic word Our Lord used in Greek (which is what we actually have), and similarly no exact equivalence between the Greek and English.

I wonder what the Greek says?

It uses the word porneia - often translated "fornication", but actually it is a more general term than the English "fornication" and a better translation is possibly "sexual immorality". In the context of marriage, "adultery" is probably a pretty good translation. So there's no real let out there. However, to get a real idea of the intent of Jesus' words, we must understand the culture into which Jesus was speaking.

It was one in which men - but not women - could just drop a spouse by writing a divorce paper, as Jesus refers. But such a woman would be destitute, unwanted and an embarrassment to her relatives, and therefore shunned. Jesus is saying that this situation, of men being able to reduce a woman to this state on a whim is wrong. It's one thing if she has brought the shame and dishonour on herself through playing around, but quite another because she just doesn't satisfy him in some way.

I am not at all convinced that it is in the spirit of what Jesus wanted (and isn't the entire Sermon on the Mount about getting away from the exact word of the Law and searching for the spirit of it?) to use this passage to insist on people staying within unhappy and damaging marriages regardless of what goes on. Jesus' intent was to liberate women from being chattles that could be thrown away; we do His teaching no justice by turning it into a chain that locks them in miserable failed marriages.

 

[P3nguin1]

That's a hard place to be in. The grass may be greener, but statistically it's not. That said, what would I do? Well, are you members of a church?

I agree, it is a very hard place to be in. As I said above when I was in a very similar position I divorced. My first reaction to this post was that it was just money issues and that can be overcome. After sleeping on it I now remember just how bad it can be. It isnt just about money, it is about trust.

My ex-wife used to lie to me regularly, about just about anything. Not just big things ("did you go to the bank today and deposit that check so that we don't bounce the check I paid the electric bill with?") but little things too ("yeah, I put gas in the car.")

I would talk to her and try to figure out why she would do it. Her answer was always the same "Dunno *shrug*"

It got so bad that we moved into a new place so we could have separate bedrooms and I stopped wearing my ring.

I couldn't even talk to her anymore because so much of what she said were lies. A conversation would look like this:

Me: How was work today?
Her: It was ok.
Me: Did you check the mail?
Her: Yeah, there wasn't anything in it.
Me: Really? Nothing at all? Not even junk mail?
Her: Um... there were some adds but I threw them away.
Me: Where are they, they arent in the trash. I would like to see them.
Her: Um... I didn't... actually throw them in the trash... I just kinda dropped them in the hallway (we lived in an apartment).
Me: You what?
Her: Yeah, I just left them in the hall.
Me: Did you REALLY check the mail?
Her: YES! I TOLD YOU I DID! WHY DO YOU HAVE TO QUESTION ME ALL THE TIME!
Me: Um, because you lie to me a lot?
Her: Hey, have I lied to you today?
Me: I dont know, but I am pretty sure that you didnt check the mail.
Her: Fine go see for your #$%$ing self!
(5 min later)
Me: Look hon, there was mail in the mailbox.
Her:...... oh... there was?

All of this because she lied about checking the mail.

Living this way is tiresome and it really wears you down. It is impossible to have a functional relationship with someone when you can't rely on what they say.

Alie28-

I feel for you in your situation. I was not walking with God when I made my choice to divorce and so it was easy for me. Had I been right with God I would have tried harder but I am now (after thinking about how bad it felt, how lonely it was, and what a burden it was) wondering if it wouldn't have mattered. It is difficult to live as a married person but still alone because your spouse is so selfish they cant even bother to be honest with you.

I will pray for you and I am in agreement with the above poster: Do you (or both of you) go to Church?

In His Name,
jeremey

 

[enslow]

I guess another issue to ponder is the definition of "unfaithfulness".

I looked it up on the dictionary and it has the following meanings:

1.Not adhering to promises, obligations, or allegiances; disloyal.

2.Not true or constant to one's sexual partner. Not true to one's spouse; guilty of adultery. Not justly representing or reflecting the original; inaccurate.

...Hence faithfulness in marriage is more than sex.

I have two points to make.

The first regards the unfaithfullness point: The whole reasons for divorce being confinded to unfaithfullness or unbelieving spouses refers specifically to adultary.

The second point, I know some will disagree with me, including my fiancee. Jesus came to fulfill and clarify the law. While I haven't done extensive research on this, I understand that before Jesus' coming many men were writing divorce papers for their wives based on the law written in Deuteronony. There it says a husband can write a certificate of divorce if his wife proves to be indecent to him. Men at that time would find any reason to call their wives indecent, even if it were only that she didn't cook the bread right. Obviously that wasn't the intent of the law, so Jesus had to clarify it. To make sure people couldn't make excuses anymore, Jesus basically tells us that indecent means that your spouse is either cheating on you or isn't a believer.

Personally, I believe that if your spouse is abusive, or is perhaps so financially incompetent that he destroys the family, that qualifies as indecent and Jesus would allow divorce in that case. However, I don't think He would be content if you just went ahead with divorce without first trying every means possible to rectify the marriage which includes counselling and praying.

God bless you and I hope you two can sort it out. You do not want to choose divorce unless the marriage is truly and seriously damaging to the family.

Enslow

 

[Alie28]

As I say, my husband and I are now separated, living quite some way apart from each other. I keep hearing from this thread that I should fight for it, take counselling and pray.

Well as far as fighting for the marriage goes, I believe I have. As I say I supported him for 6 years financially while he was spending what money we had. The trust is completely gone for me. One person earlier in this thread said I am being unforgiving... I say balony! I have forgiven him in my heart, but does forgiveness mean I have to live with him and thereby condone all his behaviours?

Counselling? As for counselling, I have told him, go ahead - you arrange it and I will attend. I even told him a free counselling service he could arrange it through and he hasn't done anything about it.

Pray for him? I prayed for 6 years that he would get a job, along with a chain of prayer warriors. Interestingly, as soon as we part (he moves city), he gets weeks work. Funny how that didn't happen in all the time we were together. Maybe that is God saying that his blessing wasn't in the marriage, either that or more likely he never wanted to work as long as I was supporting him.

Fight for it? I also did that for a long time. I make him CV's made him a comprehensive website, encouraged him in every way for as long as I could, and all I get in return is lies and deceit.

It is easy for those Christians who have never been through something like this to glibly say, ... try more counselling...marriage is a covenant not to be broken... stay in the marraige. But when you have a baby to support, no money and a husband who refuses to budget, you need to start thinking of the health and welfare of the child.

As for adultory/unfaithfulness, as I say I am unsure whether this has occurred, he claims to have been faithful. My husband had sexual partners before we married. As I say, I found out when I was 36 weeks pregnant that I had clamydia. There is a chance that he passed this on to me at the beginning of the relationship 7 years ago. However the mere fact that he wont go to the doctors, get diagnosed and get it fixed, is a form of unfaithfulness. I have asked him to do this at least 5 times.

However in the meantime I am still getting love letters from him, wanting me back. It just doesn't make sense.

 

[Svt4Him]

Being one of those Christians who has faced this personally, as well as currently helping a sister through it, as well as seeing my mom go through it, I know it's a hard road.

Anyone in a church where someone is going through a divorce, support them. Whether you believe in divorce or not, believe in people. It saddens me how few...actually none...of the people in my sister's church have phoned to support her, cooked her a meal, yet when someone's husband leaves, they get tons of support. It seems to me that people are so one-sided in their belief on divorce that they miss the greater things of the law, like mercy and compassion.

 

[desi]

Anyone in a church where someone is going through a divorce, support them. Whether you believe in divorce or not, believe in people. It saddens me how few...actually none...of the people in my sister's church have phoned to support her, cooked her a meal, yet when someone's husband leaves, they get tons of support. It seems to me that people are so one-sided in their belief on divorce that they miss the greater things of the law, like mercy and compassion.

Doesn't supporting people who choose to do ungodly things like divorce make us part of the problem?

 

[Warrior Poet]

Does not supporting them make you part of the solution?

Warrior Poet

 

[P3nguin1]

Doesn't supporting people who choose to do ungodly things like divorce make us part of the problem?

God hates Divorce. God does not hate people who divorce. You may not wish to support peoples actions (I am willing to bet that not all of your actions are Godly, neither are mine) but you should support PEOPLE.

Divorce is a sin, but it is not one that (usually) happens due to a moment of temptation that just can not be resisted. Everyone in your (and my) church sins. By supporting them are you supporting their sins? No. By supporting them you are reminding them that God loves us even when we fail.

 

[desi]

God hates Divorce. God does not hate people who divorce. You may not wish to support peoples actions (I am willing to bet that not all of your actions are Godly, neither are mine) but you should support PEOPLE.

Divorce is a sin, but it is not one that (usually) happens due to a moment of temptation that just can not be resisted. Everyone in your (and my) church sins. By supporting them are you supporting their sins? No. By supporting them you are reminding them that God loves us even when we fail.

I thought by supporting them when they sin we validate their sin by refusing to rebuke them for it.

 

[desi]

Does not supporting them make you part of the solution?

Warrior Poet

It does if I don't serve as an enabler for them to sin.