what a difference a little time makes.

[Uphill Battle]

presto chango.

leaders in the church "come as you are."

to leaders in the church "dress up so people will know you're important."

before anyone complains that I'm picking on any one denomination, these are various. Catholic, Protestant and Orthodox.

 

[Uphill Battle]

Presto Chango.

Lord's supper, a full meal, shared with all believers.

nowadays: little piece of bread, maybe some wine, maybe not, sometimes only for "your kind of believer."

before anyone complains that I'm picking on any one denomination, these are various. Catholic, Protestant and Orthodox.

 

[Uphill Battle]

Presto Chango.

Then: meeting in homes, for the most part.

nowadays:

before anyone complains that I'm picking on any one denomination, these are various. Catholic, Protestant and Orthodox.

 

[Uphill Battle]

just an observation on a few points of Christianity as a WHOLE. This is not a denominational issue.

 

[MamaZ]

I guess it is the sprinkles that decorate the cookie. For the outward appearance means nothing to God but what is in the heart. Even the lowly and the poor are great in the eyes of the Lord. It is the lofty and the proud that do not.

 

[Catherineanne]

just an observation on a few points of Christianity as a WHOLE. This is not a denominational issue.

So you have observed that priests wear vestments, which have not changed for 2,000 years, while complaining that people worship in churches, which is not the same as 2,000 years ago.

What is your point, exactly? Do you want everything to remain the same forever, as with the vestments, or everything to change, as with the building of churches?

Or are you just complaining about anything you can find to complain about?

 

[simonthezealot]

1 peter 3:3-4
3 Whose adorning let it not be that outward adorning of plaiting the hair, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparel;
4 But let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price.[SIZE=+0] [/SIZE]

 

[simonthezealot]

So you have observed that priests wear vestments, which have not changed for 2,000 years,

Prove that Christian ministers have wore vestments for 2000 years does the didache talk about it? how bout Martyr? or Ireneaus? or Hermes?

 

[Uphill Battle]

So you have observed that priests wear vestments, which have not changed for 2,000 years,

I'd like you to subsatiate that priests, pastors, whatever... have worn fancy robes from the very start. Good luck with that.

while complaining that people worship in churches, which is not the same as 2,000 years ago.

not complaining. just observing. take from it what you want.

What is your point, exactly? Do you want everything to remain the same forever, as with the vestments, or everything to change, as with the building of churches?

I don't remember stating what I think of it. Just observing.

Or are you just complaining about anything you can find to complain about?

again... I don't see anywhere where I registered a complaint.

 

[squint]

The 'priest class' was commanded by God in O.T. law to wear very certain and meticulously made garments. Certain called ones in Israel at that time were also instructed to build, the Ark for example, and eventually the Temple.

There have been no such commands since except by men.

Matt. 6:
1 Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven.

5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

16 Moreover when ye fast, be not, as the hypocrites, of a sad countenance: for they disfigure their faces, that they may appear unto men to fast. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

19 Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth

7:

1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.

22:

17 Tell us therefore, What thinkest thou? Is it lawful to give tribute unto Caesar, or not?
18 But Jesus perceived their wickedness, and said, Why tempt ye me, ye hypocrites?

23:

13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men


14 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.

15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith:

27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.

29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous

Luke 11:

44: Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are as graves which appear not

 

[Thekla]

Well, considering that the Edict of Milan returned Church buildings (as well as the homes of Christians) to the "ekklesia" who worshiped in and owned them, Christians started messing up at least 1700 years ago per this view
(actually, according to archeological findings, started messing up more than 1700 years ago...)

then there's the silly "Temple thing" and vestments, and precious stones in the OT

oh well

 

[Ormly]

"Women in turn are to dress modestly and quietly in seemly garb; they are not to adorn themselves with plaits of hair, with gold or pearls or expensive finery" 1 Timothy 2:9 (MOFF)

Conversely I believe the opposite should be expected: A dress code that declares honor for the Lord. Enough of the slovenliness. Away with the shorts, T shirts, thongs, tights, raggy jeans, flip-flops and all else that speaks of disrespect for God in His house.

 

[MamaZ]

Well since we are the temple of God now I think that the adornment should be of the Spirit and not of anything else teehee..

 

[Kristos]

When and where the wearing of vestments started in the Christian church, I cannot say, but I think it's a caricature of the truth to think that a priest wears vestments for his own glory. I don't wish to speak for everyone, but an Orthodox priest only wears vestments during the service. At all other times, they are humbly dressed.

There is also a strange pride which presents itself as the standard of humility.

 

[Kristos]

 

[Uphill Battle]

Well, considering that the Edict of Milan returned Church buildings (as well as the homes of Christians) to the "ekklesia" who worshiped in and owned them, Christians started messing up at least 1700 years ago per this view

sounds about right. Christians have been messing things up from word go. Nature of the beast.

then there's the silly "Temple thing" and vestments, and precious stones in the OT

oh well

yes. The Jews were commanded to wear certain clothes.

we were not.

as for the bulidings thing... interesting that we build huge, ornate buildings for the "glory of God." Consider the tabernacle for a bit if you wish to draw a comparison.

When and where the wearing of vestments started in the Christian church, I cannot say, but I think it's a caricature of the truth to think that a priest wears vestments for his own glory.

I know. I didn't suggest as much. I don't think any individual is at personal fault for anything.

I don't wish to speak for everyone, but an Orthodox priest only wears vestments during the service. At all other times, they are humbly dressed.

I'd bet there's a few that wish they could dispense with the vestments at ALL times.

There is also a strange pride which presents itself as the standard of humility.

you mean prideful about their level of humility?

 

[lionroar0]

When and where the wearing of vestments started in the Christian church, I cannot say, but I think it's a caricature of the truth to think that a priest wears vestments for his own glory. I don't wish to speak for everyone, but an Orthodox priest only wears vestments during the service. At all other times, they are humbly dressed.

There is also a strange pride which presents itself as the standard of humility.

You know that's a pet peeve(sp?) of mine. Almost every person, white collar or blue collar wear some kind of "uniform."

But when priests put on the vestments. It's not to do the work of God for which they were called but to glorify themselves

People are ignorant that the priests vestments are part of the Liturgy. Every piece of clothing has a meaning that points towards God.

The Liturgy engages all of our senses and directs them in worship towards God. This includes the vestments of the priest.

Sorry don't mean to speak for the EOC since I'm not EO. It's similar in the RCC (not the same)

Rant over.


Peace

 

[lionroar0]

I know. I didn't suggest as much. I don't think any individual is at personal fault for anything.

I didn't think you did.

BTW that's a very good question about when did the priests start wearing vestments.

As u can see I don't know.

Peace

 

[Uphill Battle]

hmmm. I don't think you can go to the local walmart and pick up vestments sewn with gold filagree.


but who am I to disagree, eh?

again... I didn't state they did so to glorify themselves.

I'm just observing the vast changes over the course of time. I wonder why you guys are hilighting on the clothing one? it seems the least important, really.

 

[squint]

I'm just observing the vast changes over the course of time. I wonder why you guys are hilighting on the clothing one? it seems the least important, really.

hello

How about DIVISIONS?

How about SECTS?

How about DISPUTING?

How about BACKBITING?

These are the EASIEST to observe.

Now how about THE MINISTRY OF CONDEMNATION?

How about the IMPOSSIBILITY of loving our neighbors as ourselves and RATHER dividing them ALL away from ourselves and CONDEMNING them to be burned alive forever???

How about SELLING US forgiveness? How about putting FALSE SALVE over our eyes?

How about FALSE JUSTIFICATIONS?

How many forms of IDOL WORSHIP? I mean HOW MANY FREEWILLS do men bow to...? Each to their own IDOL 4 sure!

You talk about a LONG FALL...headlong.

The 'same measure' that the 'churches' have dispensed WILL be dispensed upon them. And every mans sword WILL be turned against his brother:

When Ezekiel peered between the 'cracks' and INTO the Temple he saw DESPICABLE and VILE things 'within.'

Ezekiel 38:

And I will call for a sword against him throughout all my mountains, saith the Lord GOD: every man's sword shall be against his brother.

If anything, THIS is a picture of the 'churches.'

What's showin' on the OUTSIDE of the CUP don't mean A THING.

enjoy!

squint