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Ken-1122

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Actually I think this is backwards; if people don't believe a voice from the sky, they won't believe what was written by a bunch of flawed and imperfect men who claimed were insipred by God.
A voice from the sky has more credibility than what you have right now; problem is we never had a voice from the sky so you really can't say it won't work!

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Ken-1122

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Razontherock (quote)
“1) It's ok to deal with the words of Jesus and not trifle with the rest of the Bible, especially as an unbeliever. You'll get some amazingly healthy influence that way, and I do think you would be better prepared to receive the underlying points of other belief systems if you were inclined to read their texts. I don't see anything wrong with the Jefferson Bible; Thomas Jefferson was a very bright and hard-working man who did a lot of great things. You might find it a great starting point?”

(reply) I guess I could “cherry pick” through the parts of the bible that I am comfortable with; that confirm what I want to believe, and turn a blind eye, and ignore the parts that make me uncomfortable; but that can be done with any religious book!

(quote)
“2) Trying to wrap our head around the blood and gore of the OT is a challenge for anyone, so don't feel alone in that! And Moses was a highly trained commander of the most successful army in the world at that time, which means his tactics were utterly ruthless. So there's no guesswork involved; yes, those parts were written by men of war!

(reply) it’s never been a challenge for me to understand the blood and gore of the OT, I just don’t agree with it being right!

(quote)
“3) What is the truth value being communicated to us in those sections? If you knew, you'd be amazed. Yet, before one can even "see the Kingdom," you must be born again. I think that comes first, while understanding these sections comes later.”

(reply) Don’t think I am capable of doing that. For me to attempt to believe first, and then understand what I believe is akin to what my grandma used to call putting the cart before the horse. For me belief happens after reason and logic demands it; not before.


Ken
 
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docpotter

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Some people did not believe Jesus was the Christ when he was on the earth ! Pharoh did not believe in God in the midst of plague after plague. God has spoken through the prophets , He parted the red sea, He sent Jesus who walked on water , healed the blind, the lame , the crippled, fed the 5,000, turned water into wine, He raised the dead , He Himself was raised from the dead . If these things did not happen we would not be having this debate .

We are without excuse , God has given you , me , and the world all the information we will ever need . Faith is trusting God , trusting His word, and most of all trusting the One whom He sent .

You Ken are asking for God to help all the lazy , skeptical , doubters to have an absolute miracle because you think its a good idea. If God is indeed God , author of life, creator of all things , do you not think just maybe He has a better plan then you , or me ?
 
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docpotter

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One more thing that I find quite interesting ....

In John 6 : 44 Jesus says ..

" No one can come to me unless the Father who sent Me draws him , and I will raise him up on the last day "

My older brother , who is a mechanical engineer and very smart is also a Christian , and He has always had a challenge for anyone who is struggling in their belief of God . He simply says that if anyone , in their heart of hearts asks God in a prayer to please show Himself to them , that within 24 hours God will show them something incredible that they will know without question was from God .

Granted it would take someone with some faith , or at least the hope that God is real to even pray from their heart, then of course it would take a bold and honest person to admit that God did indeed reveal himself to them . But it may be worth a shot

Don't give up on searching Ken , it took me many years to come to the truth , and God was super merciful on me giving me the time to find Him .
 
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Ken-1122

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As I mentioned in previous posts, when I was christian trying to get saved, I tried that. I prayed every day for 7 years and nothing happened. Eventually I gave up.

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docpotter

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I hear ya man , I pray for a lot of things that I don't get , but God makes sure I have everything I need .

It really depends on what we are praying for . And without faith in God what good are prayers anyway right ?

I prayed that God would let me win the Match 6 lotto yesterday lol, I really did . Jesus says " we can ask God for anything in His name " so I do , but I have to realize God has a plan for my life , and winning the lottery may not fit into his plan .

I can tell you truthfully though I have prayed over the years for peace and wisdom , and God has answered those prayers time and time again . But again , I have an unshakable belief that God hears me , and I trust Him .

Sounds to me Ken like you never really had a strong belief , and you never really felt forgiven or saved . Is that fair to say ?
 
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Ken-1122

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Not quite! I had a strong belief, I had a very strong faith, but I didn’t believe I was saved, so I prayed that God would save me. I was not praying for lottery tickets or personal gain, I was looking to take my religious beliefs to the next level.
I also read and studied the bible with an effort to understand what I was reading.

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Ken-1122

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docpotter said:
Why then did you not believe you were saved ?

Check out Romans 10 : 9-10

or John 6 28 : 29
Click to expand...

I was taught that you were not saved at birth; that when you get to the age of understanding, you must get saved. I know what Romans 10:9 says, but when you dig a little deeper, people ususally say you must do more than simply say the magic words then assume you are saved and continue doing what you were doing all along; they usually say an experience and a change of behavior must take place. I was going with what I was taught.


Ken
 
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razeontherock

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Sorry but "we" HAVE had a voice from the sky. And those that were there to hear consider Scripture to be "more sure." Your thinking here is bass ackwards according to them ...

Jesus framed a lot of things in that way; the last will be first, etc etc. Have you ever confronted what is recorded as His words? I think your problem is you are just starting in with things you have no way of relating to. Try dealing just with what He said! (Sometime)
 
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razeontherock

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This is the "challenge" I refer to, and you have never applied yourself to it. You have no means to do so now, so it is not an appropriate undertaking for you, so far. If you were to read through my thread on the subject --- frankly, I don't think you'd make it through all the material there. You simply have no idea how involved this all is!

Start simple.

(quote) 3) What is the truth value being communicated to us in those sections? If you knew, you'd be amazed. Yet, before one can even "see the Kingdom," you must be born again. I think that comes first, while understanding these sections comes later.

(reply) Don’t think I am capable of doing that. For me to attempt to believe first, and then understand what I believe is akin to what my grandma used to call putting the cart before the horse. For me belief happens after reason and logic demands it; not before.
[/QUOTE]

Again this is not responsive to anything I said in the least. Faith simply doesn't work in the way you're caricaturizing
 
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razeontherock

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Ken-1122 said:
Not quite! I had a strong belief, I had a very strong faith, but I didn’t believe I was saved
Click to expand...

There is benefit in reflecting, and getting feedback from others. Often people get defensive about that at first, but we can still benefit once we calm down enough to listen. I have to point out your claim of "strong Faith" is not compatible with the other things you say here pertinent to the same time period.

Do you really know what Faith is? If so, how did you acquire that understanding?
 
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GA777

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You are wrong. I did seek from the heart
Click to expand...

then I'm sorry, because you dont know what that means, as I have shown you before lots of things which you were aware of, and which needed nothing but reading a few verses of the bible (which of course you didnt, or if you ever did, you were not able to understand 1 tiny bit), or to search for minutes on the internet.


You think someone, who was cured by God, after so much pain, would care to get any $ after getting to know God? What you cant understand is, that any christian who may have experienced such thing, would not care about this world, neither about its money. Plus, a miracle happens at an unexpected time anyways, that's why people cant prove so, all you can get is experiences from witnesses, unless it happens to you which is very unlikely to. And there is evidence in front of your eyes on the internet, but you just reject to see it.



I told you to tell me when you were about to pray, countless of times, but you didnt, I told you to pray from your heart, but you dont know what "praying from your heart" means and still dont know what it means now. And how can you pray to someone from your heart when you judge him as being evil all the time?

Christianity isn’t the only religion who make such claims, and as with the other religions, none of it can be verified.
Click to expand...

Which religions are you talking about, because I fail to see how others could have experienced any of it. You may find some, of course, but they arent the 1% those of christianity, and those which happen have nothing in common which either proves hallucination or untrue info.


That's exactly the contrary of what you told me via PM! And I am not talking about the prophecies of Jesus only, there is a lot of prophecies about nations which are too amazing to be fulfilled. The problem is that when you see any symbollic or not clear verse, you claim it to be false, which just proves that you misunderstand what is written there.



A miracle is a delusional trick of the mind? fulfilled prophecies are? NDEs are?
Emotion experience tho. is a proof, so your claim is invalid, if it came from someone else, then you would have said that it isnt a trick. And many who have found God experienced that, so because that didnt happen to you, it doesnt mean that he doesnt exist, but because there's something wrong with you

I dont think I want to convert someone who doesnt want to convert. You're with an agenda, you've asked me MANY times to convert to atheism if I get enough proof, when I told you yes, you discussed of course, but when I told you no, you just ended the discussion because your whole purpose from the start was to convert people, and not to make a normal discussion. I can say that you are doing the same in this thread, because it is much clearer from your threads, that you are trying to explain why God doesnt exist, why God is evil, why the bible is false through questions, which is of course seriously misinterpreted. I offered you convincing proof (detailed fulfilled prophecies about nations) and can offer you proof, which I shouldnt do tho., I can post them if you pm me, because I'd get banned if i post some here.

My last reply here, because the discussion is pointless as you arent being honest, neither looking for a change.
 
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Ken-1122

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(quote)”then I'm sorry, because you dont know what that means, as I have shown you before lots of things which you were aware of, and which needed nothing but reading a few verses of the bible (which of course you didnt, or if you ever did, you were not able to understand 1 tiny bit), or to search for minutes on the internet.”

(reply) As I told you before, this happened long before there was an internet! What are you talking about?

(quote) “I told you to tell me when you were about to pray, countless of times, but you didnt, I told you to pray from your heart, but you dont know what "praying from your heart" means and still dont know what it means now. And how can you pray to someone from your heart when you judge him as being evil all the time?”

(reply) Tell you what; when you figure out a way to pray to another God that you know does not exist, I will figure out a way to pray to your God that I know does not exist. Fair enough?

(quote) “Which religions are you talking about, because I fail to see how others could have experienced any of it. You may find some, of course, but they arent the 1% those of christianity, and those which happen have nothing in common which either proves hallucination or untrue info.”

(reply) Do you really believe that Christianity is the only religion that makes claims of their prophet, or God doing things outside the laws of nature? Now THAT you can find on the internet.

(quote) “That's exactly the contrary of what you told me via PM! And I am not talking about the prophecies of Jesus only, there is a lot of prophecies about nations which are too amazing to be fulfilled

(reply)Christianity is not the only religion who claim prophecy, there are fortune tellers, palm readers, and prophets of other religions as well that people swear to just as with your religion

(quote) The problem is that when you see any symbollic or not clear verse, you claim it to be false, which just proves that you misunderstand what is written there.

(reply)I think you’ve got it backwards; when I show you something untrue, you call it symbolic or an analogy meant to make a point. Lots of theists do that.

(quote) “I dont think I want to convert someone who doesnt want to convert.

(reply) THANK-YOU!!! I asked you to quit trying to convert me, I appreciate you respecting that.

(quote)” You're with an agenda, you've asked me MANY times to convert to atheism if I get enough proof

(reply) That is totally untrue! After you asked me many times if I would convert if shown evidence, I asked you ONCE if you would deny Christianly if shown it was untrue; but I only asked out of retaliation of you trying to convert me. I couldn’t care less if you believe in God or not

(quote)” when I told you yes, you discussed of course, but when I told you no, you just ended the discussion

(reply) Whaat??? Did you say yes or no? you not making sense here

(quote) “because your whole purpose from the start was to convert people, and not to make a normal discussion

(reply) Are you blushing? Because I know I could not tell such a story without blushing. You accuse ME of trying to convert YOU??? You came to me via PM and all you did was try to convert me. If you are gonna claim to be Christian on a Christian fourm, at least TRY to tell the truth!

(quote) “I can say that you are doing the same in this thread, because it is much clearer from your threads, that you are trying to explain why God doesnt exist, why God is evil, why the bible is false through questions

(reply) Which threads have I accused your God of being evil or said the bible is false? I may have explained why I believe the bible is false or why I don’t believe your God exist, which is a big difference. If I had said what you accuse me of, the moderators would have shut me down

(quote) “My last reply here, because the discussion is pointless as you arent being honest, neither looking for a change

(rely) If I may quote George Bush, Good riddance!

Peace
Ken
 
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Ken-1122

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Again this is not responsive to anything I said in the least. Faith simply doesn't work in the way you're caricaturizing[/quote]

I disagree! It is a response to what you said. The reason faith doesn't work the way I'm caticaturizing is because I don't use faith.

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Ken-1122

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So you say I should start dealing with what Jesus actually said? And how do YOU know what Jesus actually said? How does anybody know?
The problem with Jesus is he never wrote anything down, so nobody really knows WHAT he said. The only thing we have about him is what other flawed and imperfect men with possible agendas had to say about him; and of course that varies from person to person often contradicting each other.
If you believe the men who wrote the books that eventually became the bible, according to these men Jesus claimed to be the son of God. If you believe the men who wrote the books that eventually became the Holy Koran, or even some of the Gnostic gospels, according to these men Jesus never even made such claims! So who do you believe? Well you obviously believe Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John but how do you know you are right and the other guys are wrong? Faith??? Well the problem I have with faith is there is no means of establishing the truth! Because the same faith that you use to believe your bible is right is the exact same faith that the next guy has that his Koran is right! So how am I supposed to know (outside of faith) what Jesus really said?

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woodpecker

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hi Ken, I have not read through all this, but I was once an atheist. But for what ever reason when I was 38 I was watching the history channel about hell...for some reason I thought what if I am wrong and this heaven and hell stuff is true.

I started searching, reading, about all religions and new age stuff....but it was my children's piano teachers that showed me the way...they had such peace, such amazing faith, I said to them 'I want what you have'.

I had read the bible many times, and like you it was no different than any other religious book....but this time I read it and I was believing it, and now I know it was the Holy Spirit opening my mind and heart to this spiritual book, it was alive, it was feeding my soul, I could not read enough.

When you really want the truth, and just not facts, God will show you. This is spiritual, not scientific.
 
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