Westminster Confession on Equals

[heymikey80]

In the Westminster Confession we have rules about how equals are to treat one another:

The duties of equals are, to regard the dignity and worth of each other, in giving honour to go one before another; and to rejoice in each others’ gifts and advancement, as their own.​

I was just wondering, is there no similar thing in mid-acts dispensationalism? I've noticed the tendency here to simply "outpost" respondents, and not really respond to serious questions challenging the Scriptural basis for the position.

Over the course of a half hour today I noticed ephie posted the same information as would be appropriate responses for past threads. This shifted all the great answers pointing out the errors of this position off the front page.

Are the foundations for this theology really relying on pouring so much sand around the Rock?

 

[BoughtByBlood]

Are the foundations for this theology really relying on pouring so much sand around the Rock?

I sure hope not. Your concern is a valid one and is something I've noticed as well. As a "MAD proponent" (I guess I'd be labelled by some on this forum, though I'm very hesitant to accept such a label, seeing the proclamations and behavior of others who wear this label as a badge of honor)... As a "MAD proponent", such behavior troubles me. It's not something to be condoned.

 

[LamorakDesGalis]

In the Westminster Confession we have rules about how equals are to treat one another:

The duties of equals are, to regard the dignity and worth of each other, in giving honour to go one before another; and to rejoice in each others’ gifts and advancement, as their own.​

What a great quote!

Are the foundations for this theology really relying on pouring so much sand around the Rock?

Those are cheap, shortsighted tactics, aren't they?


LDG

 

[LamorakDesGalis]

I sure hope not. Your concern is a valid one and is something I've noticed as well. As a "MAD proponent" (I guess I'd be labelled by some on this forum, though I'm very hesitant to accept such a label, seeing the proclamations and behavior of others who wear this label as a badge of honor)... As a "MAD proponent", such behavior troubles me. It's not something to be condoned.

I'm glad it concerns you, because the behavior is doing more harm than good to your view. I know that's not how all Mid-Acts dispensationalists act, because I know a few really nice ones online.

I think some use the label "MAD" as supposedly tongue in cheek, but I refrain from it because I consider it disrespectful.

LDG

 

[s0journ3r]

In the Westminster Confession we have rules about how equals are to treat one another:

The duties of equals are, to regard the dignity and worth of each other, in giving honour to go one before another; and to rejoice in each others’ gifts and advancement, as their own.​

I was just wondering, is there no similar thing in mid-acts dispensationalism? I've noticed the tendency here to simply "outpost" respondents, and not really respond to serious questions challenging the Scriptural basis for the position.

Over the course of a half hour today I noticed ephie posted the same information as would be appropriate responses for past threads. This shifted all the great answers pointing out the errors of this position off the front page.

Are the foundations for this theology really relying on pouring so much sand around the Rock?

Wonderful quote from the Catechism...I enjoy reading those historical works. And an excellent observation. I thought I was the only one who thought of that. But, evidently I'm not.

Yours truly in Christ,
sojourner

 

[JMWHALEN]

So far, I'm seeing that very much damage is being done. I may not participate in this forum much longer because of it. Not only is the behavior of the prominent "MAD" proponents unworthy, their doctrine is markedly heretical. They do not reflect true Pauline dispensationalism. Sure enough, they may have a few pieces of the puzzle in the right place, but they're working from only half (or less) of an overall picture.


Thank you.


Well, if your opponent can cause the audience to laugh at you, you've lost the debate without saying a word.

It's nothing less than an orator's trick, a kind of politician's tool.

You're right for not promoting such.

___________-

"Not only is the behavior of the prominent "MAD" proponents unworthy, their doctrine is markedly heretical. They do not reflect true Pauline dispensationalism. "

Specifics, please.


And just what is "markedly" heretical?And just what is "true Pauline dispensationalism"? Who sets the standard for what is "markedly" heretical? You? Me? Scripture! Ah, yes!-and thus the purpose of "arguing"(arguing is good).

And who decides what is "true" Pauline dispensationalism? Is there a "definitive" book defining just what is "true" Pauline dispensationalism, so as to make this judgment? If there is, why are you and I here?How did you come to your assessment/judgment as to just what constitutes "true" Pauline dispensationalism? Is your, or my, judgment, the last word on the subject? Is not the purpose of these forums to discuss what is "true", and what is not?

It seems to me that your statement really adds nothing to the discussion. Acts 2 dispensationalists contend that they are "true Pauline dispensationalists", and Acts 9 contend................., and Acts 13 contend, and...... The point being?

In Christ,
John M. Whalen

 

[foundinHim]

Dear BoughtByBlood:

I do not agree with this statement: "Whatever is incorrect is called heresy". Some people preach or teach incorrectly because they are "unlearned"...are taught by man, not by God...are "false brethren"...just to name a few reasons.

And crying "heretick" is usually used to provoke anger and is usually uncalled for, by those who do. We should be able to discuss ALL Scripture if we can agree on the basic doctrines of faith, such as our belief in God, the Deity of Christ, on His birth, death, burial, and resurrection, and on how we are saved.

Welcome to the 'dispensationalism' forum!

"found in Him"
a sister in Christ

 

[eph3Nine]

Dear BoughtByBlood:

I do not agree with this statement: "Whatever is incorrect is called heresy". Some people preach or teach incorrectly because they are "unlearned"...are taught by man, not by God...are "false brethren"...just to name a few reasons.

And crying "heretick" is usually used to provoke anger and is usually uncalled for, by those who do. We should be able to discuss ALL Scripture if we can agree on the basic doctrines of faith, such as our belief in God, the Deity of Christ, on His birth, death, burial, and resurrection, and on how we are saved.

Welcome to the 'dispensationalism' forum!

"found in Him"
a sister in Christ

Good post, foundinhim....

 

[JMWHALEN]

One proponent, I won't name names, believes that before the dispensation of the grace of God, men had to perform works to gain acceptance with God.

This is heretical. Markedly so.

Now, please note, by "the prominent MAD proponents" I had two individuals in mind. You weren't one of them.


See above.


That laid out in Holy Writ. None other.


Yes. Scripture.

Arguing is good? Not always.


I call this book "the scriptures." Some call it "the Bible."


To spread the Word. To be "fishers of men." Why else? All is vanity, is it not?


Much reading, reflection, prayer, and discussion/debate with others.


Insofar as our word reflects The Word. We have the mind of Christ.

Perhaps.


That only one is correct.

Whatever is incorrect is called heresy.

_______________


And just what is "true Pauline dispensationalism"?
That laid out in Holy Writ. None other.


My comment(Mc):Akin to saying "what is true, is true".
Again, who decides? You? Me? The statement really says NADA.

Quote:
Who sets the standard for what is "markedly" heretical? You? Me? Scripture! Ah, yes!-and thus the purpose of "arguing"(arguing is good).
Yes. Scripture.

Arguing is good? Not always.

Mc: Who decides what scripture "says" in determining what is "markedly" heretical? You? Me? Of course, this is the purpose of arguing. Arguing is good. The statement adds nothing to the debate.

Quote:
And who decides what is "true" Pauline dispensationalism? Is there a "definitive" book defining just what is "true" Pauline dispensationalism, so as to make this judgment?
I call this book "the scriptures." Some call it "the Bible."

Mc: I agree. Your point being?

Quote:
If there is, why are you and I here?
To spread the Word. To be "fishers of men." Why else? All is vanity, is it not?

Mc: To argue, to persuade......

I am not a "fisher of men" in this dispensation. I am "live bait."


Quote:
How did you come to your assessment/judgment as to just what constitutes "true" Pauline dispensationalism?
Much reading, reflection, prayer, and discussion/debate with others.

Mc: Same here. Your point being?.


Quote:
Is your, or my, judgment, the last word on the subject?
Insofar as our word reflects The Word. We have the mind of Christ.

Mc: Same here. Your point being?

Quote:
Is not the purpose of these forums to discuss what is "true", and what is not?
Perhaps.

Mc: Your point being?


Quote:
It seems to me that your statement really adds nothing to the discussion. Acts 2 dispensationalists contend that they are "true Pauline dispensationalists", and Acts 9 contend................., and Acts 13 contend, and...... The point being?
That only one is correct.

Whatever is incorrect is called heresy.

Mc: And who decides what is "heresy"? Scripture? Who says your interpretation of scripture, your conclusions from scripture, are "true", and others' is not?

Perhaps you may conclude that my questioning you on your post is just me being "difficult." However, I find too many emotional "arguments" are being made on the subject of arriving at the truth, that often add nothing to our understanding of the truth.

In Christ,
John

 

[heymikey80]

Dear BoughtByBlood:

I do not agree with this statement: "Whatever is incorrect is called heresy". Some people preach or teach incorrectly because they are "unlearned"...are taught by man, not by God...are "false brethren"...just to name a few reasons.

And crying "heretick" is usually used to provoke anger and is usually uncalled for, by those who do. We should be able to discuss ALL Scripture if we can agree on the basic doctrines of faith, such as our belief in God, the Deity of Christ, on His birth, death, burial, and resurrection, and on how we are saved.

Welcome to the 'dispensationalism' forum!

"found in Him"
a sister in Christ

Given the sheer volume of cut & paste postings here from mid-acts dispensationalists, I don't think this kind of "one-upmanship" would be a very good reflection on them.

Scripture contradicts many of the views expressed by mid-acts dispensationalists. Their response? Post wildly 'til it gets scrolled off the main page.

I fed you with milk, not solid food, for you were not ready for it. And even now you are not yet ready, for you are still of the flesh. For while there is jealousy and strife among you, are you not of the flesh and behaving only in a human way? For when one says, "I follow Paul," and another, "I follow Apollos," are you not being merely human? What then is Apollos? What is Paul? Servants through whom you believed, as the Lord assigned to each. I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the growth. So neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything, but only God who gives the growth. 1 Cor 3:2-7​

 

[eph3Nine]

Given the sheer volume of cut & paste postings here from mid-acts dispensationalists, I don't think this kind of "one-upmanship" would be a very good reflection on them.

Scripture contradicts many of the views expressed by mid-acts dispensationalists. Their response? Post wildly 'til it gets scrolled off the main page.

I fed you with milk, not solid food, for you were not ready for it. And even now you are not yet ready, for you are still of the flesh. For while there is jealousy and strife among you, are you not of the flesh and behaving only in a human way? For when one says, "I follow Paul," and another, "I follow Apollos," are you not being merely human? What then is Apollos? What is Paul? Servants through whom you believed, as the Lord assigned to each. I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the growth. So neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything, but only God who gives the growth. 1 Cor 3:2-7​

If you dont like the material...please feel free to put us on ignore...its a wonderful feature.

And I see NOTHING with which to be ashamed when wanting to see and read truth instead of being lulled into a false sense of security by believing "another gospel of a different kind" than that given to Paul for we the Body of Christ.

We are TOLD in scripture to "follow Paul as he followed (the RISEN) Christ"...Are you saying that you dont follow Christ Risen from the dead?

What purpose would there be to following Christ in His earthly ministry, when He himself stated that the purpose for His coming to minister on EARTH was to minister "to the LOST sheep of the House of Israel", and to "fulfil the promises made to the (Israels) fathers?"

 

[JMWHALEN]

"Scripture contradicts many of the views expressed by mid-acts dispensationalists. Their response? Post wildly 'til it gets scrolled off the main page." -hehmikey80
_____________________________________
No, this is our response:

Prophecy spoken about since the world began:

"Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people, And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David; As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began:..." Luke 1:68-70

"Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began." Acts 3:21


vs.

Mystery:kept secret/silent, hidden since the world began:


"Now to Him that is of power to establish you according to my [Paul's] gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the Mystery, which has been KEPT SECRET since the world began. But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:" Romans 16:25, 26

"But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory..." 1 Cor. 2:7

"If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which Is given me [Paul] to you-ward: how that by revelation He made known unto me the Mystery....Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;And to make all men see what Is the fellowship of the Mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been HID In God, who created all things by Jesus Christ" Eph. 3:2,9.

unsearcheable=not traceable; forget about looking for it in the OT

"Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:.." Col. 1:26



"seek ye first the kingdom of God" Mt. 6:33, Luke 12:31: To seek for something, by definition, means to look for it. One would not be seeking the kingdom of God unless one was not presently in it.

vs.

Col. 1:12,13; 1 Thes. 2:12; Eph. 3:20, 2:6 Philippians 3:20: We are already counted as citizens of heaven, although it's manifestation is not yet present. 2 Cor. 5:20: An ambassador represents his "boss" in a foreign country; citizenship in that country(heaven) is a prerequisite to ambassadorship.



"And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel." Mt. 19:28, Luke 22:30, Rev. 21:14
"And I will restore thy judges as at the first, and thy counsellors as at the beginning: afterward thou shalt be called, The city of righteousness, the faithful city." Isaiah 1:26

vs.

"Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters? Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?" 1 Cor. 6:2,3



The Lord Jesus Christ's throne:
"And he said unto her, What wilt thou? She saith unto him, Grant that these my two sons may sit, the one on thy right hand, and the other on the left, in thy kingdom." Mt. 20:21
"To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne." Rev. 3:21

vs.

God the Father's throne:
"Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places," Eph. 1:20
"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:." Eph. 1:3
"And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus..." Eph. 2:6

=Members of the Body of Christ will with the Lord Jesus Christ in the heavenlies upon God the Father's throne, but kingdom members will sit upon the Lord Jesus Christ's throne on earth.


"But against any of the children of Israel shall not a dog move his tongue, against man or beast: that ye may know how that the LORD doth put a difference between the Egyptians and Israel." Exodus 11:7
"... I am the LORD your God, which have separated you from other people." Lev. 20:24
"For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth." Deut. 7:6

vs.

"For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him." Romans 10:12
"Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all." Col. 3:11
"Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all." Gal. 3:28


Forgiveness: Mt. 6:12-15, 18:32-35; Mk. 11:25,26; Luke 6:37, 11:4, 17:3; James 5:14,15; 2 Chron. 7:14=conditional

vs.

2 Cor. 5:19; Eph. 1:7, 4:31,32; Col. 1:14, 2:13, 3:13,14; Romans 4:5-8=unconditional


"For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end..." Hebrews 3:14

vs.

"For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones." Eph. 5:30; Romans 12:5; 1 Cor. 6:15, 12:12, 27; Col. 1:12-14


sell all/foresake all/leave all: command given- Mt. 19:21; Mk. 10: 21;Luke 12:33, 18:22/command obeyed-Mt. 19:27; Mk. 10:28; Luke 5:11, 18:28; Acts 2:44,45, 4:32, 34(after Calvary)/penalty for disobedience-death Acts 5:1-11
principle: "... all things common..."- Acts 2:44, 4:32-34, 3:6 The Lord Jesus Christ promised that His Father would provide everything during the apostle's/disciple's ministry, both prior to and after Calvary.

vs.

principle: private enterprise-"....every man according to his ability...." Acts 11:29
(The Lord Jesus Christ promised that His Father would provide everything during the apostle's/disciple's ministry, both prior to and after Calvary. Notice the change: from "having favour with all the people"(Acts 2:47), to "there was a great persecution against the church which was at Jerusalem"(Acts 8:1), and relief is sent to the poor saints(Acts 11:29, 1 Cor. 16:1-3))



"But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you." John 14:26
"But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things......But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him." 1 John 2"20.27
"And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more." Jer. 31:34
(see also Mt. 10:19; Mk. 13:11; Luke 12:11,12, 21:14,15; John 16:13).

vs.

"Study...." 2 Timothy 2:15; Col. 2:7, 3:16; Titus 1:9; 1 Tim. 2:7, 1:3; 2 Tim. 1:11; Gal. 6:6



"But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved." Mt. 24:13

vs.

"Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ." 1 Cor. 1:8



Instructions for the sick: Acts 19:11,12; James 5:14,15
vs.
Instructions for the sick: 2 Cor. 12:9, 10, 11:30, 12:5; 1 Timothy 5:23


"Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne..." Acts 2:30

vs.

"Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification." Romans 4:25



"Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you." John 15:13,14

vs.

"For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly........For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life." Romans 5:6-10.



"....give his life a ransom for many." Mt. 20:28, Mark 10:45

vs.

"Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time." 1 Tim. 2:6


The kingdom: set up suddenly, violently by force: Daniel 2:44; Jer. 33:15; Mt. 11:12, 24:27; Mal. 3:1; Is. 11:4, 19:1; John 6:15; Revelation/a literal, eternal kingdom, in which location is earth: Deut. 11:21........(to many references)/eartthly kingdom promised only to Israel: 2 Sam. 7:12-16; Jer. 30:4-12; Luke 1:32, 12:32; Mt. 21:43, 25:34; Acts 3:19-21-"That your days may be multiplied, and the days of your children, in the land which the LORD sware unto your fathers to give them, as the days of heaven upon the earth." Deut. 11:21/prepared from the foundation of the world: Mt. 13:35, 25:34; Luke 11:50, and spoken about since the world began: Luke 1:68-70; Acts 3:21-24/Jesus Christ is "King of the Jews". "King of Israel"(too many references)/waiting for a kingdom: Hebrews 12:28/ believers' relationship: king-subject-servant/an outward, earthly, political organization to be set up/ushering in of the kingdom will be preceded by wrath and tribulation(too many references)/"having received the kingdom"(Luke 19:15), enter into the kingdom of heaven"(Mt. 18:3), "inherit the kingdom"(Mt. 25:34)

vs.

The church, the body of Christ: is being built up gradually- a process: 1 Cor. 3:9-11; Col. 2:7; Eph. 2:20-22/location is heavenly places: Eph. 1:3,10,20, 2:6; Philiippians 1:3,20; Col. 1:5, 3:1-4; 2 Cor. 5:20; 1 Cor. 6:3/chosen in Him before the foundation of the world: Eph. 1:4; 2 Tim. 1:9; 1 Cor. 2:7, and kept secret, hidden, since the world began: Romans 16:25; Eph. 3:5,9; Col. 1:26; 1 Cor. 2:7/ called: a house- 1 Tim. 3:15, a temple-1 Cor. 3:16,17, 6:19; Eph. 2:22; a building-1 Cor. 3:9; but never called a kingdom/Jesus Christ is "the head of the body": Eph. 1:22, 4:15, 5:23; Col. 1:18, 2:19/looking "for that blessed hope": Titus 2:13; 1 Thes. 1:10, 2:19; Romans 8:11,23; /believers' relationship:head/member: Romans 12:4,5; 1 Cor. 6:15, 12:12-27; Eph. 4:25, 5:30-32=a joint union /an invisible, spiritual organism to be "caught up"/members of the body of Christ have been delivered from the wrath to come: Romans 5:9; 1 Thes. 1:10, 4:13-5:11; Gal. 1:4/no such language as "receive the church", "enter the church", "inherit the church"...



"And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams..." Acts 2:17

vs.

"This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away." 2 Tim. 3:1-5



Israel receives the entire kingdom program through the disposition of angels: Deut. 33:2; Psalms 68:17; Acts 7:53; Gal. 3:19; Luke 1:19,20; Acts 1:10,11; Hebrews 2:2/John receives the Apocalypse through the administration of an angel: Rev. 1:1

vs.

The body of Christ judges( in the sense of administration) the angelic realm: 1 Cor. 6:3/The body of Christ is seated equally with the Lord Jesus Christ=has authority over the angelic realm: Eph. 1:20, 23, 2:6; Philippians 3:20/The body of Christ has a teaching ministry to the angels: Eph. 3:10


"Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me." Psalms 51:11
"But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him." 1 Samuel 16:14

vs.

Ephesians 4:30, 1:13, 2:22; 1 Cor. 3:16, 6:19; 2 Cor. 1:22; Rom. 8:15; Gal. 4:6

"But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed." Galatians 1:8

vs.

" And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people..." Rev. 14:6


The list goes on and on and on and..........




Dividing this Holy Bible is a command, not a suggestion. Everyone divides it, but not all rightly, including myself. The question focuses on, and the debate centers on, the issue of what is the proper, correct division. Things that differ are not the same. And dispensationalism merely takes the command to its logical conclusion, and recognizes these differences, and provides a logical framework upon which to undertand these differences.

Those who do not take a dispensational approach to understanding/interpreting scripture, are time after time placed in the "Rick Ricardo" position of "'splainin'" away, yes, contradictory passages. Us "MAD"'s , for the most part, have no such "hocus pocus"/"spin" to undertake.


And the main difference is between the prophetic program, and the mystery program. My charge is to be faithful in outlining this division-nothing more, nothing less. If you cannot "see" it(Eph. 3:9), so be it. After all, "...to his own master he standeth or falleth..."(Romans 14:4), and I have never claimed to be the master of those who reject dispensationalism, a "good" biblical word, or anyone else's master.


If one says they do not divide the Holy Bible , they are being intellectually dishonest, and I would ask: Who issued thestop payment on your reality check.? Again, things that differ are not the same.

In Christ,
John M. Whalen

 

[heymikey80]

If you dont like the material...please feel free to put us on ignore...its a wonderful feature.

I've no interest in ignoring error, but prefer to guard against it.

And I see NOTHING with which to be ashamed when wanting to see and read truth instead of being lulled into a false sense of security by believing "another gospel of a different kind" than that given to Paul for we the Body of Christ.

This is your view, which has been shown to be inconsistent with Scripture.

I'll stick with the teachings of the Apostles and Prophets of God, Jesus Christ being the Cornerstone of it all.

We are TOLD in scripture to "follow Paul as he followed (the RISEN) Christ"...Are you saying that you dont follow Christ Risen from the dead?

I would not follow a Paul who contradicts the truth of "Jesus Christ: the same yesterday and today and forever. Do not be led away by diverse and strange teachings, for it is good for the heart to be strengthened by grace, not by foods which have not benefited those devoted to them." Heb 13:8-9

 

[heymikey80]

(... to which my prior post and indeed the point of the initial posting was admirably demonstrated quickly by Mr. Whalen.)

The mystery is revealed for all to see -- before Paul, by Jesus Christ Himself. He made His Apostles to understand the mystery, and they proclaimed it to all peoples. Even the Angel at Jesus' Advent told us this; but Jesus opened their minds as advertised in Luke 24 & John 20.

But that's not the subject of this thread, Mr. Whalen. The subject of this thread is mid-acts dispensationalists' inability to permit a conversation, but essentially drown threads, bury them in the sand of redundant postings, and generally offend the duty of equals.

Which you didn't comment on.

 

[eph3Nine]

"Scripture contradicts many of the views expressed by mid-acts dispensationalists. Their response? Post wildly 'til it gets scrolled off the main page." -hehmikey80
_____________________________________
No, this is our response:

Prophecy spoken about since the world began:

"Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people, And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David; As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began:..." Luke 1:68-70

"Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began." Acts 3:21


vs.

Mystery:kept secret/silent, hidden since the world began:


"Now to Him that is of power to establish you according to my [Paul's] gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the Mystery, which has been KEPT SECRET since the world began. But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:" Romans 16:25, 26

"But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory..." 1 Cor. 2:7

"If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which Is given me [Paul] to you-ward: how that by revelation He made known unto me the Mystery....Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;And to make all men see what Is the fellowship of the Mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been HID In God, who created all things by Jesus Christ" Eph. 3:2,9.

unsearcheable=not traceable; forget about looking for it in the OT

"Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:.." Col. 1:26



"seek ye first the kingdom of God" Mt. 6:33, Luke 12:31: To seek for something, by definition, means to look for it. One would not be seeking the kingdom of God unless one was not presently in it.

vs.

Col. 1:12,13; 1 Thes. 2:12; Eph. 3:20, 2:6 Philippians 3:20: We are already counted as citizens of heaven, although it's manifestation is not yet present. 2 Cor. 5:20: An ambassador represents his "boss" in a foreign country; citizenship in that country(heaven) is a prerequisite to ambassadorship.



"And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel." Mt. 19:28, Luke 22:30, Rev. 21:14
"And I will restore thy judges as at the first, and thy counsellors as at the beginning: afterward thou shalt be called, The city of righteousness, the faithful city." Isaiah 1:26

vs.

"Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters? Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?" 1 Cor. 6:2,3



The Lord Jesus Christ's throne:
"And he said unto her, What wilt thou? She saith unto him, Grant that these my two sons may sit, the one on thy right hand, and the other on the left, in thy kingdom." Mt. 20:21
"To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne." Rev. 3:21

vs.

God the Father's throne:
"Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places," Eph. 1:20
"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:." Eph. 1:3
"And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus..." Eph. 2:6

=Members of the Body of Christ will with the Lord Jesus Christ in the heavenlies upon God the Father's throne, but kingdom members will sit upon the Lord Jesus Christ's throne on earth.


"But against any of the children of Israel shall not a dog move his tongue, against man or beast: that ye may know how that the LORD doth put a difference between the Egyptians and Israel." Exodus 11:7
"... I am the LORD your God, which have separated you from other people." Lev. 20:24
"For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth." Deut. 7:6

vs.

"For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him." Romans 10:12
"Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all." Col. 3:11
"Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all." Gal. 3:28


Forgiveness: Mt. 6:12-15, 18:32-35; Mk. 11:25,26; Luke 6:37, 11:4, 17:3; James 5:14,15; 2 Chron. 7:14=conditional

vs.

2 Cor. 5:19; Eph. 1:7, 4:31,32; Col. 1:14, 2:13, 3:13,14; Romans 4:5-8=unconditional


"For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end..." Hebrews 3:14

vs.

"For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones." Eph. 5:30; Romans 12:5; 1 Cor. 6:15, 12:12, 27; Col. 1:12-14


sell all/foresake all/leave all: command given- Mt. 19:21; Mk. 10: 21;Luke 12:33, 18:22/command obeyed-Mt. 19:27; Mk. 10:28; Luke 5:11, 18:28; Acts 2:44,45, 4:32, 34(after Calvary)/penalty for disobedience-death Acts 5:1-11
principle: "... all things common..."- Acts 2:44, 4:32-34, 3:6 The Lord Jesus Christ promised that His Father would provide everything during the apostle's/disciple's ministry, both prior to and after Calvary.

vs.

principle: private enterprise-"....every man according to his ability...." Acts 11:29
(The Lord Jesus Christ promised that His Father would provide everything during the apostle's/disciple's ministry, both prior to and after Calvary. Notice the change: from "having favour with all the people"(Acts 2:47), to "there was a great persecution against the church which was at Jerusalem"(Acts 8:1), and relief is sent to the poor saints(Acts 11:29, 1 Cor. 16:1-3))



"But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you." John 14:26
"But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things......But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him." 1 John 2"20.27
"And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more." Jer. 31:34
(see also Mt. 10:19; Mk. 13:11; Luke 12:11,12, 21:14,15; John 16:13).

vs.

"Study...." 2 Timothy 2:15; Col. 2:7, 3:16; Titus 1:9; 1 Tim. 2:7, 1:3; 2 Tim. 1:11; Gal. 6:6



"But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved." Mt. 24:13

vs.

"Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ." 1 Cor. 1:8



Instructions for the sick: Acts 19:11,12; James 5:14,15
vs.
Instructions for the sick: 2 Cor. 12:9, 10, 11:30, 12:5; 1 Timothy 5:23


"Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne..." Acts 2:30

vs.

"Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification." Romans 4:25



"Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you." John 15:13,14

vs.

"For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly........For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life." Romans 5:6-10.



"....give his life a ransom for many." Mt. 20:28, Mark 10:45

vs.

"Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time." 1 Tim. 2:6


The kingdom: set up suddenly, violently by force: Daniel 2:44; Jer. 33:15; Mt. 11:12, 24:27; Mal. 3:1; Is. 11:4, 19:1; John 6:15; Revelation/a literal, eternal kingdom, in which location is earth: Deut. 11:21........(to many references)/eartthly kingdom promised only to Israel: 2 Sam. 7:12-16; Jer. 30:4-12; Luke 1:32, 12:32; Mt. 21:43, 25:34; Acts 3:19-21-"That your days may be multiplied, and the days of your children, in the land which the LORD sware unto your fathers to give them, as the days of heaven upon the earth." Deut. 11:21/prepared from the foundation of the world: Mt. 13:35, 25:34; Luke 11:50, and spoken about since the world began: Luke 1:68-70; Acts 3:21-24/Jesus Christ is "King of the Jews". "King of Israel"(too many references)/waiting for a kingdom: Hebrews 12:28/ believers' relationship: king-subject-servant/an outward, earthly, political organization to be set up/ushering in of the kingdom will be preceded by wrath and tribulation(too many references)/"having received the kingdom"(Luke 19:15), enter into the kingdom of heaven"(Mt. 18:3), "inherit the kingdom"(Mt. 25:34)

vs.

The church, the body of Christ: is being built up gradually- a process: 1 Cor. 3:9-11; Col. 2:7; Eph. 2:20-22/location is heavenly places: Eph. 1:3,10,20, 2:6; Philiippians 1:3,20; Col. 1:5, 3:1-4; 2 Cor. 5:20; 1 Cor. 6:3/chosen in Him before the foundation of the world: Eph. 1:4; 2 Tim. 1:9; 1 Cor. 2:7, and kept secret, hidden, since the world began: Romans 16:25; Eph. 3:5,9; Col. 1:26; 1 Cor. 2:7/ called: a house- 1 Tim. 3:15, a temple-1 Cor. 3:16,17, 6:19; Eph. 2:22; a building-1 Cor. 3:9; but never called a kingdom/Jesus Christ is "the head of the body": Eph. 1:22, 4:15, 5:23; Col. 1:18, 2:19/looking "for that blessed hope": Titus 2:13; 1 Thes. 1:10, 2:19; Romans 8:11,23; /believers' relationship:head/member: Romans 12:4,5; 1 Cor. 6:15, 12:12-27; Eph. 4:25, 5:30-32=a joint union /an invisible, spiritual organism to be "caught up"/members of the body of Christ have been delivered from the wrath to come: Romans 5:9; 1 Thes. 1:10, 4:13-5:11; Gal. 1:4/no such language as "receive the church", "enter the church", "inherit the church"...



"And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams..." Acts 2:17

vs.

"This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away." 2 Tim. 3:1-5



Israel receives the entire kingdom program through the disposition of angels: Deut. 33:2; Psalms 68:17; Acts 7:53; Gal. 3:19; Luke 1:19,20; Acts 1:10,11; Hebrews 2:2/John receives the Apocalypse through the administration of an angel: Rev. 1:1

vs.

The body of Christ judges( in the sense of administration) the angelic realm: 1 Cor. 6:3/The body of Christ is seated equally with the Lord Jesus Christ=has authority over the angelic realm: Eph. 1:20, 23, 2:6; Philippians 3:20/The body of Christ has a teaching ministry to the angels: Eph. 3:10


"Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me." Psalms 51:11
"But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him." 1 Samuel 16:14

vs.

Ephesians 4:30, 1:13, 2:22; 1 Cor. 3:16, 6:19; 2 Cor. 1:22; Rom. 8:15; Gal. 4:6

"But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed." Galatians 1:8

vs.

" And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people..." Rev. 14:6


The list goes on and on and on and..........




Dividing this Holy Bible is a command, not a suggestion. Everyone divides it, but not all rightly, including myself. The question focuses on, and the debate centers on, the issue of what is the proper, correct division. Things that differ are not the same. And dispensationalism merely takes the command to its logical conclusion, and recognizes these differences, and provides a logical framework upon which to undertand these differences.

Those who do not take a dispensational approach to understanding/interpreting scripture, are time after time placed in the "Rick Ricardo" position of "'splainin'" away, yes, contradictory passages. Us "MAD"'s , for the most part, have no such "hocus pocus"/"spin" to undertake.


And the main difference is between the prophetic program, and the mystery program. My charge is to be faithful in outlining this division-nothing more, nothing less. If you cannot "see" it(Eph. 3:9), so be it. After all, "...to his own master he standeth or falleth..."(Romans 14:4), and I have never claimed to be the master of those who reject dispensationalism, a "good" biblical word, or anyone else's master.


If one says they do not divide the Holy Bible , they are being intellectually dishonest, and I would ask: Who issued thestop payment on your reality check.? Again, things that differ are not the same.

In Christ,
John M. Whalen

AAAAAaaaamen, John. Excellent post full of what we DO teach and what the bible DOES say! Thank you...this one goes in my files along with many of your other posts!

 

[heymikey80]

AAAAAaaaamen, John. Excellent post full of what we DO teach and what the bible DOES say! Thank you...this one goes in my files along with many of your other posts!

That's not the subject of this thread, ephie. The subject of this thread is mid-acts dispensationalists' inability to permit a conversation, but essentially drown threads, bury them in the sand of redundant postings, and generally offend the duty of equals.

Which you've also demonstrated admirably. My assertion stands, Mr. Whalen:

"Scripture contradicts many of the views expressed by mid-acts dispensationalists. Their response? Post wildly 'til it gets scrolled off the main page."

 

[LamorakDesGalis]

Dear BoughtByBlood:

I do not agree with this statement: "Whatever is incorrect is called heresy".

I believe BoughtByBlood's comment was in response to JM's question "Your point being?"

BoughtByBlood's protest is to those who act in the manner of "whatever is incorrect is called heresy."

There have been many others who have pointed out the black/white mentality by some Mid-Acts disp proponents who constantly label others with whom they disagree as heretics. heymikey80 has pointed out the incongruity of saying one has the truth and questionable behavior/tactics. If a person really claims to have the truth, why should they use such cheap debate tactics and techniques?

Does anyone believe the Holy Spirit is actually going to work through those whose behavior is not in step with the Spirit?


LDG

 

[BoughtByBlood]

Mr. Whalen,

Yes. Your response to me was little more than you being "difficult." Not very proper to ask someone a host of questions, and then respond to their answers with "Your point being?"

I don't have a point, Mr. Whalen. You ask questions. I give answers.

The only one around here becoming emotional is you, sir.

Regardless of this, I appreciate your subsequent post where you lay out your position. I see that you and I align on many points, perhaps even every point.

I apologize that I came across too sternly previously. You are correct. There are many "babes" in Christ who I would not label heretics. I reserve that label for those who, after studying the Word, fight the truth and promote lies. Error does indeed exist, Mr. Whalen. It's our duty to be able to identify it and to call it out as what it truly is. People's emotions notwithstanding. I'm all for gently instructing, but there comes a time, if you know what I mean.

 

[BoughtByBlood]

Which you've also demonstrated admirably. My assertion stands, Mr. Whalen:

"Scripture contradicts many of the views expressed by mid-acts dispensationalists. Their response? Post wildly 'til it gets scrolled off the main page."

I can see where your accusation sticks with the likes of some on this forum, but not so with Mr. Whalen.

Didn't he respond with a lengthy post, spelling out the many Pauline distinctions with clarity?

And you say "My assertion stands..."?

Hardly. It may be true of one or two bad apples. But, as evidenced in this thread alone, thanks to Mr. Whalen himself, who you are still accusing, it cannot be applied to all mid-Acts dispi's with the stroke of a broad brush.

 

[JMWHALEN]

Mr. Whalen,

Yes. Your response to me was little more than you being "difficult." Not very proper to ask someone a host of questions, and then respond to their answers with "Your point being?"

I don't have a point, Mr. Whalen. You ask questions. I give answers.

The only one around here becoming emotional is you, sir.

Regardless of this, I appreciate your subsequent post where you lay out your position. I see that you and I align on many points, perhaps even every point.

I apologize that I came across too sternly previously. You are correct. There are many "babes" in Christ who I would not label heretics. I reserve that label for those who, after studying the Word, fight the truth and promote lies. Error does indeed exist, Mr. Whalen. It's our duty to be able to identify it and to call it out as what it truly is. People's emotions notwithstanding. I'm all for gently instructing, but there comes a time, if you know what I mean.

_______
BoughtByBlood:

Rhetorical question: Did you ever say something on a post, and then think:"What the ???? was I thinking?"

Anyone that knows me throught this forum understands that I tend to "shoot first, then ask questions/clean up the mess later."

I too apologize to you, and others, if I/when I come across as being, to use the overworked, "popular", cliche of today's "enlightened" society, "mean spirited, intolerant, divisive....."

However, I find it quite troubling when I hear this often well intended, but un-biblical, plea for "nicities", such as "offend the duty of equals", "...whose behavior is not in step with the Spirit...", at the expense of truth, at the expense of "sound doctrine". Sometimes the "sweet spirit of the Lord Jesus Christ" is communicated in harsh, and yes, judgmental terms. The toughest "street preacher" that ever lived, the Lord Jesus Christ, had no reservation about "calling a spade a spade."

The intent of my post was to dispel this notion that Christians are to be viewed as merely a bunch "punching bags, saps, pushovers, spineless fish w/o vertebrae, cry babies.....", and this forum, if you will, serve as a vehicle for persuading, expressing our respective viewpoints on such weighty, eternally crucial issues. And I have no patience with those that complain, cry, "murmur".........about the method for expressing a particular viewpoint, especially when it is void of scriptural support. That is better left to e-mail.

What this world, and this board, needs, is not more "popular" teaching, and concern for "what others think of me", but more "unpopular" preaching, and concern with the approval of God per 2 Timothy 2:15.

I chuckle when I hear(on other boards) a "we are going through the Great Trib" proponent brag about such, but then does not have the "spine", the "backbone", the "vertebrae" to absorb a little constructive criticism of his/her argument on a "painless" forum such as this, and cries "fill in the blank."

I am reminded of how Elijiah of old charged Israel:

"And Elijah came unto all the people, and said, How long halt ye between two opinions? if the LORD be God, follow him: but if Baal, then follow him. And the people answered him not a word." 1 Kings 18:21

And Paul:

"For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you." 1 Cor. 11:19


Let's dispense with this "kindergarten nonsense", and this "murmuring", this "kids throwing a tantrum" routine, and "...quit... like men..."(1 Cor. 16:13, 1 Samuel 4:9) This is not a kindegarten playground, but a battlefield, where the stakes are high. Instead, let's embrace:

"Produce your cause, saith the LORD; bring forth your strong reasons, saith the King of Jacob."Isaiah 41:12

and "let the chips fall where the will"(or fold 'em").

Now, does someone want to tell me to shut up?(another rhetorical question).

In Christ,
John M. Whalen