Western Rite Orthodox Eucharist

[Searching_for_Christ]

Hello guys. A question just popped into my head when I was trying to find pictures of a western rite Orthodox service, and a classical "cartoon" of a priest holding up the host, while a younger child is standing behind him. Would it be likely that if Western Rite Orthodoxy really took off here in the states, that something like Eucharistic adoration would be something they practice? or no?

 

[Dorothea]

I wouldn't think the Western Rite Orthodox would be able to adopt an RCC practice.

 

[MKJ]

Hello guys. A question just popped into my head when I was trying to find pictures of a western rite Orthodox service, and a classical "cartoon" of a priest holding up the host, while a younger child is standing behind him. Would it be likely that if Western Rite Orthodoxy really took off here in the states, that something like Eucharistic adoration would be something they practice? or no?

Seems pretty improbable to me.

 

[gzt]

Although you should note that the image is of a moment in the liturgy, not of "Eucharistic adoration", and a similar moment is in the Orthodox liturgy. Not being terribly familiar with the Western mass, I can't say whether it's the same moment with the same purporse.

 

[Coralie]

Eucharistic adoration isn't Orthodox at all. It falls under the created/uncreated Grace category of RCC/EO differences...I can't see an Orthodox bishop allowing it.

FWIW, Anglican practice also doesn't include Eucharistic adoration. Well, at least I've never ever heard of it in an Anglican church. High Anglican praxis is a good way to roughly approximate appropriate Western Orthodox practice... Anglicanism is influenced by its Orthodox past to a surprising extent (albeit usually unknowingly).

 

[Searching_for_Christ]

Question, is adoration wrong? and by this I mean...we Orthodox (I aint orthodox yet) don't have Eucharistic adoration, because we believe the Eucharist, suppose to be consumed. HOWEVER the RCC does have Eucharistic adoration, and if i was to enter the Church, and they had the Host, out for adoration...would it be wrong for me to do so? If it was consecrated then it IS The Body of our Lord is it not? just wondering.

 

[MKJ]

Eucharistic adoration isn't Orthodox at all. It falls under the created/uncreated Grace category of RCC/EO differences...I can't see an Orthodox bishop allowing it.

FWIW, Anglican practice also doesn't include Eucharistic adoration. Well, at least I've never ever heard of it in an Anglican church. High Anglican praxis is a good way to roughly approximate appropriate Western Orthodox practice... Anglicanism is influenced by its Orthodox past to a surprising extent (albeit usually unknowingly).

You can find Anglicans doing almost anything.

I was once at an Anglican service that included adoration (it made me very uncomfortable) and there are groups that do it regularly. They are generally the sort that do things like use the Roman missal for their liturgy.

That being said, I think it is pretty profoundly un-Anglican.

 

[ArmyMatt]

well, if it is Roman Catholic we don't know, so I would say don't participate in the adoration, show respect, but don't participate. so I would not say that it is wrong (and I might be wrong in this regard) in any sorta heretical/evil sense, but it does not make sense with what the Eucharist is. Christ never said anything about Holy Communion other than it is to be consumed.

 

[Coralie]

Question, is adoration wrong? and by this I mean...we Orthodox (I aint orthodox yet) don't have Eucharistic adoration, because we believe the Eucharist, suppose to be consumed. HOWEVER the RCC does have Eucharistic adoration, and if i was to enter the Church, and they had the Host, out for adoration...would it be wrong for me to do so? If it was consecrated then it IS The Body of our Lord is it not? just wondering.

If you're Orthodox, that means you don't believe that a RC-"consecrated" communion wafer is the Body and Blood of Christ. So you (if you're EO) shouldn't be crossing yourself in front of it, genuflecting, etc. Obviously be respectful, but not more than that.

 

[Searching_for_Christ]

If you're Orthodox, that means you don't believe that a RC-"consecrated" communion wafer is the Body and Blood of Christ.

I never knew that we believed that. I mean...hmm...interesting.

 

[Coralie]

I never knew that we believed that. I mean...hmm...interesting.

Well...the RCC isn't in communion with the Church (the Body of Christ)...so their eucharist isn't Christ's Body. Which is why EOs aren't permitted to commune in RCC churches.

That's not to say Catholics aren't to be loved and admired, the simple truth is they are not in the Church. If (and this is a huge big IF, with the understanding that MANY RCC practices would be repudiated or at LEAST modified heavily -- eg eucharistic adoration would be out) they were to come back into full, canonical communion with us, their Eucharist would be valid.

 

[Searching_for_Christ]

Well...the RCC isn't in communion with the Church (the Body of Christ)...so their eucharist isn't Christ's Body. Which is why EOs aren't permitted to commune in RCC churches.

That's not to say Catholics aren't to be loved and admired, the simple truth is they are not in the Church. If (and this is a huge big IF, with the understanding that MANY RCC practices would be repudiated or at LEAST modified heavily -- eg eucharistic adoration would be out) they were to come back into full, canonical communion with us, their Eucharist would be valid.

I suppose I find that interesting because, I would assume we believe they have valid sacraments? but then it would sound like that would be a no, if even their Eucharist isn't the Body and Blood of Christ. I wonder if there is a similar thought within the RCC about us and our Eucharist.

 

[ProScribe]

You learn more [In this case about the Western Rite] by actually attending the beautiful services.

 

[Coralie]

I suppose I find that interesting because, I would assume we believe they have valid sacraments? but then it would sound like that would be a no, if even their Eucharist isn't the Body and Blood of Christ. I wonder if there is a similar thought within the RCC about us and our Eucharist.

Afaik the RCC believes EO orders are valid and that our Eucharist is valid too. Technically (afaik) RCCs are permitted by the Pope to commune in EO churches. However, in practice this is incredibly rare, since an EO priest is unlikely to allow anyone but an Orthodox Xian commune.

 

[JohntheTheologian]

This sounds like the elevation to me, and the young boy is probably an altar server. It's normal in the Western Rite (Anglican/Roman Catholic, at least), for the priest to lift the consecrated elements off the altar for the people to see and worship. It's much earlier than seperate services of Eucharistic Adoration, which shows that the proper context of Eucharistic Adoration is in the liturgy itself, prior to the Holy Communion.

In the ancient Latin Church, because the liturgy was (a) in Latin, and (b) silent during the canon, the elevation (accompanied by the ringing of bells) was the sign for the people that the elements had been concecrated.

It normally occurs three times during the canon: after the consecration of bread, after the consecration of the wine, and at the end of the prayer.

 

[Searching_for_Christ]

Afaik the RCC believes EO orders are valid and that our Eucharist is valid too. Technically (afaik) RCCs are permitted by the Pope to commune in EO churches. However, in practice this is incredibly rare, since an EO priest is unlikely to allow anyone but an Orthodox Xian commune.

If the RCC Eucharist isn't valid, simply because they are not in communion with our Churches, then would that mean that the Oriental Orthodox Eucharist is equally invalid?

 

[Coralie]

If the RCC Eucharist isn't valid, simply because they are not in communion with our Churches, then would that mean that the Oriental Orthodox Eucharist is equally invalid?

Just to be clear here -- It's not "simply" because they are not in communion with us -- it's not just a technicality that we'll iron out in a few months -- they are not in communion with us for very good, very important reasons. There are an enormous number of things that the RCC would have to renounce in order to come into communion with us. And they are probably not going to renounce them without a miracle taking place (Lord have mercy!)

EOs are not permitted to commune at OO churches either, since the OO is not part of the Body of Christ. HOWEVER, since the OO is outside our communion for a single theological reason based on linguistic and cultural issues that are in the process of being resolved, MUCH less separates the OO from us, compared to the RCC.

You will find economia being extended in some cases. For example, in my home country there are no OO churches but many Somalian and Ethiopian refugees... so the GO Metropolitan opens his chapel to them and officiates weddings for them when no-one else is available.

However, since they're outside the Body of Christ, that means their eucharist is technically invalid. When they return (it's more of a "when" than an "if" in this case), it will be different.

 

[Searching_for_Christ]

Thank you for the explanations. I suppose I'm just trying to wrap my head around this. Obviously there is quite a lot of stuff that separates us from the RCC, however since they have valid, bishops, priests ect....then why would that make the Eucharist invalid?

 

[gzt]

"Valid" is a Catholic term, not especially popular in Orthodox terminology except when borrowed wholesale from Catholicism.

 

[Searching_for_Christ]

"Valid" is a Catholic term, not especially popular in Orthodox terminology except when borrowed wholesale from Catholicism.

I think I get what your saying now. The Catholic Church tends to say "such and such are valid, because they have valid orders, but such and such aren't valid" but in reality they not only need valid orders, but the Church has to be valid too?