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Westboro Baptists

Albion

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Much information from this thread.
Then I take it that the Baptist denomination has no legal right to prevent a church from using that name.

There is no "Baptist denomination" and no, the word isn't copyrighted.

Those who use the point three that Moonpup gave, think they are showing love to warn if they think someone is in the wrong. Just the hateful methods set them apart.

But this is a good question that Meta Tron is interested in getting at. So far, no one seems to have found anything about the WBC that is unusual in a doctrinal way. Yes, you can say that Christians shouldn't be hateful, etc. but that's talk about behavior, not doctrine.

Are all Baptists following that man Calvin?
Certainly not.
 
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drstevej

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Yes. They are crusaders. Just as Jerry Falwell was with his Moral Majority. I remember when they took out the violent scenes from Bugs Bunny cartoons because they thought children would emulate them.

3127271-8790921491-owl-n.jpg


Better not let Westboro get a whiff of such Radical Mischief.
 
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Rescued One

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You have got to be kidding. Other than Westboro how many Baptist churches do you know of who travel 100s of mile to picket funerals? Are the views and theology of Warren Jeffs representative of LDS?

Excellent points.
 
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Der Alte

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And that has exactly ....what.....to do with their theology? I don't thing picketing is necessarily indicative of either orthodoxy or non-orthodoxy.

*note

Originally Posted by Meta Tron

They profess to follow these confessions. If that is true then their Theology is orthodox. But their walk, i.e. actions, don't align with their talk.

The First London Baptist Confession Of Faith, 1646

The Savoy Declaration Of Faith And Order, 1658

The Philadelphia Confession Of Faith, 1742​
 
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I think one of the things to learn from the WBC is that it is impossible to give every teaching of the Bible equal weight. I know Soulgazer posted here before that justice and love are opposing forces, and that's something I'd have to agree with.

When you read the Bible you'll either have to focus on the God that demands obedience and justice, or you'll have to follow the God that tells you to love your neighbor as yourself. There isn't much in between that isn't a complete schizophrenic mess, theologically speaking at least.

It's pretty obvious to me that WBC only cares about the God that is obsessed with obedience.
 
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PersephonesTear

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But this is a good question that Meta Tron is interested in getting at. So far, no one seems to have found anything about the WBC that is unusual in a doctrinal way. Yes, you can say that Christians shouldn't be hateful, etc. but that's talk about behavior, not doctrine.
Maybe the lesson here is that one's doctrine is not so easily separated from the practice of one's faith...

In any case, it is a hard question to answer simply because the church makes very few public statements about what it is they actually believe. We know that they are five point Calvinists, because they have said that much. We know that they are against homosexuality, because of their protests.

They have also made statements that they believe funerals are necromatic rituals in which people "worship the dead." This point particularly seems in contrast to orthodox Christianity as most Christians do not believe that having a funeral = worshiping the dead. We also see no condemnation of funerals in Scripture - in fact, Jesus is recorded to have attended at least one (that of Lazarus), though in that case it ended up not being a funeral after all. I'd be interested to know if they hold funerals for their own dead. I know that they at least bury them in the regular cemetery and put up tombstones for them.

Some of the other stuff that they have said... like, in documentaries and interviews, seems very off. But they don't go into great detail on their minute doctrines, which is how they can appear to have orthodox doctrine while practicing hate. I'm pretty sure that if someone was able to really dig deeply into it, they'd find out that there are some rather stark departures.

They are an apocalyptic cult, from what I have seen. When Louis Theroux interviewed them last time, some of the kids told him this elaborate story about how one of them had a dream about the family hiding in pink caves, and then they found out that there really are pink caves in Israel. And they gave him this very detailed account of what they think is going to happen in US politics regarding their court case that was before the Supreme Court at the time. Like, they said the Supreme Court would uphold their rights, but the US people would hate it so much that they would revolt, causing the President to transport the Phelps family out of the US via Air Force One, and they would end up hiding in pink caves in Israel while the rest of the world went to hell in a hand basket, and then Jesus came back. Obviously, their prediction did not go as planned.

So - if that's just a taste of what they come up with, I'm willing to bet that behind closed doors, there's a lot more to the story of their doctrine than the rest of us will ever know. And we'll be better off for not knowing it, in my opinion.

Granted, they aren't the only group to have come up with whacky end time prophecies... but such beliefs are not orthodox, regardless of what group cooks them up.
 
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Albion

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I don't want to be maneuvered (not that you were doing it) into being a defender of WBC, but as to the question of their doctrines being unusual for Baptists, their website seems to give as much attention to that subject as the typical local congregation of any church does, and we don't find what's said to be unusual. That's the point, not that their picketing of funerals and what may have been stated at some time to the press is not unacceptable. If we stick strictly with the doctrinal side of things, it looks like these are more or less ordinary Baptists except for the top-heavy leadership and the extreme behavior.

As for funerals being the worship of the dead, that's worth considering; but after all, we frequently have people saying around here on CF that such and such a practice is "making an idol of...." That is not taken literally, but it means--as we all know--that it is possible to engage in an otherwise acceptable practice but make something out of it that's more than it should be. IOW, you pervert it by your approach to it. That's probably what was meant with the reference to funerals being the worship of the dead.

Yes, there are people who should be attending a funeral in the proper Christian spirit but they actually think of it in unscriptural ways, such as praying for the deceased, saying he's looking down on us now, that he will intercede for us or hang around in spirit form to guide and help us from the great beyond. All of that is popular folk religion, not Christian teaching, but it goes on, as we all know.

Maybe the lesson here is that one's doctrine is not so easily separated from the practice of one's faith...

In any case, it is a hard question to answer simply because the church makes very few public statements about what it is they actually believe. We know that they are five point Calvinists, because they have said that much. We know that they are against homosexuality, because of their protests.

They have also made statements that they believe funerals are necromatic rituals in which people "worship the dead." This point particularly seems in contrast to orthodox Christianity as most Christians do not believe that having a funeral = worshiping the dead. We also see no condemnation of funerals in Scripture - in fact, Jesus is recorded to have attended at least one (that of Lazarus), though in that case it ended up not being a funeral after all. I'd be interested to know if they hold funerals for their own dead. I know that they at least bury them in the regular cemetery and put up tombstones for them.

Some of the other stuff that they have said... like, in documentaries and interviews, seems very off. But they don't go into great detail on their minute doctrines, which is how they can appear to have orthodox doctrine while practicing hate. I'm pretty sure that if someone was able to really dig deeply into it, they'd find out that there are some rather stark departures.

They are an apocalyptic cult, from what I have seen. When Louis Theroux interviewed them last time, some of the kids told him this elaborate story about how one of them had a dream about the family hiding in pink caves, and then they found out that there really are pink caves in Israel. And they gave him this very detailed account of what they think is going to happen in US politics regarding their court case that was before the Supreme Court at the time. Like, they said the Supreme Court would uphold their rights, but the US people would hate it so much that they would revolt, causing the President to transport the Phelps family out of the US via Air Force One, and they would end up hiding in pink caves in Israel while the rest of the world went to hell in a hand basket, and then Jesus came back. Obviously, their prediction did not go as planned.

So - if that's just a taste of what they come up with, I'm willing to bet that behind closed doors, there's a lot more to the story of their doctrine than the rest of us will ever know. And we'll be better off for not knowing it, in my opinion.

Granted, they aren't the only group to have come up with whacky end time prophecies... but such beliefs are not orthodox, regardless of what group cooks them up.
 
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Hillsage

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I don't want to be maneuvered (not that you were doing it) into being a defender of WBC, but as to the question of their doctrines being unusual for Baptists, their website seems to give as much attention to that subject as the typical local congregation of any church does,
Since I'm from Kansas I'm especially aware of this group. My son lives in Topeka and we've driven down a street and seen them picketing/protesting....'whatever it was', besides a funeral. I didn't even recognize who they were but my son and daughter in law did. So several years ago I too went to their website assuming that it would be easy to trash their beliefs. It wasn't as easy as I thought. They, just like every one else, have an "It is written" to back up everything.

This is simply another case of what I always say. God is going to more interested in your walk than your talk. Because there is no 'false doctrine' out there that doesn't have a biblical "It is written" to back everyone's religious persuasion...in their minds anyway.
 
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Norah63

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Never knew they were opposed to funerals. It is a little clearer now why they picket.. Warning against false worship. ( as they see it)
So many diffrent types of baptists doctrines to sort out. Guess it just depends on who is interpeting the bible at a congregation.
 
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