Wesley

[JM]

 

[tdidymas]

I wonder about the context of these quotes. It appears to me they are taken out of context, as I cannot see those quotes as characterizing the man. After all, here is another quote from him:

I felt I did trust in Christ, Christ alone for salvation, and an assurance was given me that he had taken away my sins, even mine, and saved me from the law of sin and death.

TD

 

[JM]

I wonder about the context of these quotes. It appears to me they are taken out of context, as I cannot see those quotes as characterizing the man. After all, here is another quote from him:

TD

They are in line with his theology.

 

[tdidymas]

They are in line with his theology.

Ok, I haven't studied John Wesley, so I don't know what his theology looks like. I had the impression years ago that he was basically Calvinist, although he did teach the false idea of Christian Perfection. His brother Charles was Arminian, and I got the idea that was a contention between them. Maybe I'm wrong about it.
TD

 

[hedrick]

They are definitely out of context. I checked the last one. See John Wesley's Spirituality in Despair and Hope. He was denying that he had any faith of his own, but still he clearly trusts in God. This is a particularly dramatic example of the Protestant concept that faith is not a work of ourselves, but that we can only trust in God.

 

[tdidymas]

I would like to correct something I said earlier, that I had the impression that John Wesley was basically a Calvinist. It is possible he was at first, at least theoretically, after attending seminary. He was a coworker with Whitefield, in which he was left to continue work in the UK where Whitefield went to the US. However, I read recently that later on Wesley developed his own soteriology based on both reformation and eastern concepts of pardon and therapy (respective), which ended up with him rejecting predestination. I don't doubt that he was a Christian brother, but he was definitely confused about some things.
TD

 

[JM]

The context spins the quote to make the reader more sympathetic but doesn't alter the meaning of what he was saying. Sure, we all get discouraged, but it is not a normal reaction to claim to be an unbeliever.

 

[hedrick]

I’m not a Wesley expert. I can say that he’s normally considered an Arminian. He shared with Whitefield the importance of conversion and personal faith. That doesn’t mean they agreed on everything. In 1739 Wesley published a condemnation of Calvinism. Whitefield had asked him not to do this. By 1741 they had parted ways.

 

[JM]

I’m not a Wesley expert. I can say that he’s normally considered an Arminian. He shared with Whitefield the importance of conversion and personal faith. That doesn’t mean they agreed on everything. In 1739 Wesley published a condemnation of Calvinism. Whitefield had asked him not to do this. By 1741 they had parted ways.

Wesley was also extremely dishonest.

A letter to the Rev. Mr. John Wesley: relative to his pretended abridgment of Zanchius on predestination / By Augustus Toplady, A. B. Vicar of Broad Hembury, Devon; and chaplain to the Right Honorable Lord Holland [electronic resource]. - Version details

+++ JOHN WESLEY'S SHAMEFUL PERSECUTION OF AUGUSTUS TOPLADY - ANOTHER EXAMPLE OF ARMINIAN HATRED FOR THE TRUTH AND THOSE PREACHING THE TRUTH, WHICH IS COMMONLY NICKNAMED CALVINISM

From Still Waters Revival Books:

John Wesley, the great apostle of Arminianism in the following century, manifested the same malicious spirit of persecution against Augustus Toplady, an earnest defender in his day of the doctrines of free and sovereign grace, and author of 'Rock of Ages Cleft for Me.'

When Toplady was thought to be on his death-bed, Wesley industriously circulated a report that Toplady had recanted the principles which it had been the business of his life to advocate. Wesley supposed Toplady to be too near the grave to contradict this foul calumny and write in his own defence. "But to the confusion of his enemies" to quote from Volume I of Toplady's Works "strength was given him to do both." Nor did he ever appear more triumphant than when, almost with his dying breath, he made so honourable and so successful an effort to repel the attacks of calumny and maintain the cause of truth.

On [Lord's-day], June 14th, less than two months before his death, he came from Knightsbridge, and after a sermon by his assistant, the Rev. Dr. Illingworth, he ascended the pulpit, to the utter astonishment of his people, and delivered a very short but a very effective discourse from 2 Peter 1:13,14, Yea, I think it meet, as long as I am in this tabernacle, to stir you up by putting you in remembrance; knowing that shortly I must put off this, my tabernacle, even as our Lord Jesus Christ hath shewed me.' When speaking of the abundant peace he experienced, and the joy and consolation of the Holy Ghost, of which for months past he had been a partaker, together with the persuasion that in a few days he must resign his mortal part to corruption, as a prelude to seeing the King in His beauty, the effect produced was such as may, perhaps, be conceived, but certainly cannot at all be described. His closing address was in substance the same with the following paper which was published the week after, and entitled, 'The Rev. Mr. Toplady's Dying Avowal of His Religious Sentiments.'

Concerning Toplady's end we are told,

"All his conversations, as he approached nearer and nearer to his decease, seemed more heavenly and happy. He frequently called himself the happiest man in the world. 'O!' (says he) 'how this soul of mine longs to be gone! Like a bird imprisoned in a cage, it longs to take its flight. O that I had wings like a dove, then would I flee away to the realms of bliss and be at rest for ever!' .... Being asked by a friend if he always enjoyed such manifestations, he answered, 'I cannot say there are no intermissions; for, if there were not, my consolations would be more or greater than I could possibly bear; but when they abate they leave such an abiding sense of God's goodness and of the certainty of my being fixed upon the eternal Rock Christ Jesus, that my soul is still filled with peace and joy.'"

Within the hour of his death he called his friends and his servantS and said,

"It will not be long before God takes me; for no mortal man can live (bursting while he said it into tears of joy) after the glories which God has manifested to my soul.' Soon after this he closed his eyes and found (as Milton finely expresses it)-'A death like sleep, A gentle wafting to immortal life' on Tuesday, August the 11th, 1778, in the 38th year of his age." (pp. 119, 120).

Toplady was not long in his grave when John Wesley publicly asserted that "the account published concerning Mr. Toplady's death was a gross imposition on the public; that he had died in black despair, uttering the most horrible blasphemies, and that none of his friends were permitted to see him." Sir Richard Hill, a friend of Mr. Toplady's, and also the Rev. J. Gawkrodger publicly wrote John Wesley and accused him of vilifying the ashes and traducing the memory of the late Mr. Augustus Toplady," and affirming that "many respectable witnesses could testify that Mr. Toplady departed this life in the full triumph of faith." (Vol. I, pp. 121-128).

The report continues that a pious dissenting minister expostulated in a pamphlet with Mr. Wesley on his unjust assertions in the following words:

"Mr. Wesley and his confederates, to whom this letter is addressed, did not only persecute the late Mr. Toplady during his life, but even sprinkled his death-bed with abominable falsehood. It was given out, in most of Mr. Wesley's societies, both far and near, that the worthy man had recanted and disowned the doctrines of sovereign grace, which obliged him, though struggling with death, to appear in the pulpit emaciated as he was, and openly avow the doctrines he had preached, as the sole support of his departing spirit. Wretched must that cause be, which has need to be supported by such unmanly shifts, and seek for shelter under such disingenuous subterfuges. O! Mr. Wesley, answer for this conduct at the bar of the Supreme. Judge yourself and you shall not be judged. Dare you also to persuade your followers that Mr. Toplady actually died in despair! Fie upon sanctified slander! Fie! Fie!"

Those who have read the preceding letters (by Sir Richard Hill and Rev. J. Gawkrodger) astonished as they must have been at their contents, will yet be more astonished to hear, that to the loud repeated calls thus given to him to speak for himself, Mr. Wesley answered not a word. Nor is it too much to say, that by maintaining a pertinacious silence in such circumstances, the very vitals of his character were stabbed by himself. He thus consented to a blot remaining on his name, among the foulest that ever stained the reputation of a professed servant of Christ.

Why should Toplady who kept the faith and finished his course in this world with joy be the target of the shafts of Wesley's venom?

It is because he refuted on Scriptural grounds the Arminianism of Wesley, and fearlessly stood in defence of the eternal truths of free and sovereign grace?

"By what spirit," writes Toplady: "this gentleman and his deputies are guided in their discussion of controversial subjects, shall appear from a specimen of the horrible aspersions which, in 'The Church Vindicated from Predestination,' they venture to heap on the Almighty Himself. The recital makes one tremble; the perusal must shock every reader who is not steeled to all reverence for the Supreme Being. Wesley and Sallon are not afraid to declare that on the hypothesis of divine decrees, the justice of God is no better than the tyranny of Tiberius. That God Himself is 'little better than Moloch.' 'A cruel, unwise, unjust, arbitrary, a self-willed tyrant.' A being devoid of wisdom, justice, mercy, holiness, and truth.' 'A devil, yea, worse than the devil.' Did the exorbitancies of the ancient ranters, or the impieties of any modem blasphemers, ever come up to this? ... Observe, reader, that these also are the very men who are so abandoned to all sense of shame, as to charge me with blasphemy for asserting with Scripture, that God worketh all things according to the counsel of His own will, and that whatever God wills is right."

"S being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will" (Ephesians 1:11).

- FROM: William MacLean, Arminianism: Another Gospel - Wesley, Moody, Billy Graham, Quotes By Calvin, Spurgeon, Edwards, Owen, Rutherford, Hodge, et al., which is at no cost at SermonAudio.com - Arminianism: Another Gospel

 

[tdidymas]

The context spins the quote to make the reader more sympathetic but doesn't alter the meaning of what he was saying. Sure, we all get discouraged, but it is not a normal reaction to claim to be an unbeliever.

I agree it's not a normal reaction; however, I also claimed to be an unbeliever for several years, but that did not make me an unbeliever. Some of us tend to exaggerate our feelings in times of tribulation. I think I understand his statements, as I have made similar statements in the past. When people are confused between real faith and feeling as if they have faith, it can certainly come to that. After my confusion I came to understand the distinction between faith and feelings. A person has faith when they obey Christ, not just when they feel like it. This may have been his confusion, as I think it is a common one.
TD

 

[tdidymas]

I’m not a Wesley expert. I can say that he’s normally considered an Arminian. He shared with Whitefield the importance of conversion and personal faith. That doesn’t mean they agreed on everything. In 1739 Wesley published a condemnation of Calvinism. Whitefield had asked him not to do this. By 1741 they had parted ways.

Tks for the info, bro. It's interesting that in 1739 he condemns both Calvinism and himself, and then himself again in 1766.
TD