Were the Sons of Aaron Predestined for Salvation?

Carl Emerson

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that sly little word "also" which the author slipped in
Romans 8:29
For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters;


Almost every english translation has the word ALSO...

ALSO also occurs in the greek text.

Who are you claiming is the 'author' who added this word and when ?
 
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OldAbramBrown

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Romans 8:29
For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters;

...


Who are you claiming is the 'author' who added this word and when ?
St Paul in plenary inspiration of God ;-)

I was trying to remind us that the foreknowing, and the predestinating by conditions, are distinct, as most of your readers aren't picking up

God foreknew
God also predestined by conditions

To my reading, that would be logically apparent even if the word "also" hadn't been mercifully slipped in by our God and Paul.

Foreknowing and predestinating aren't the same thing, they are two things.
My God's works are manifold.

In the thread context, in Aaron's sons' time, predestination had a different purpose: it was to propose a lineage of faith to foreshadow a spiritual and not material heritage.
 
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Dale

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One doesnt have to distinguish between Esau as a person and Edom as a people, the choosing or otherwise applies to both.

The Pharisees took a very dim view of Esau. It’s possible that Paul is giving us the Pharisaic view of Esau in the verses you cite in Romans 9.



The following quote is from John Gill’s commentary on Hebrews 12:16, where he tells us what the Pharisees thought about Esau.

<< ... Esau; to whom both these characters seem to belong: and this
agrees with what the Jews say concerning him: they have a tradition {w}, that
he committed five transgressions on the day he came out of the field weary.
"He committed idolatry: he shed innocent blood; and lay with a virgin
betrothed; and denied the life of the world to come (or a future state); and
despised his birthright.''
It is elsewhere {x} a little differently expressed.

"Esau, the wicked, committed five transgressions on that day: he lay with a
virgin betrothed; and killed a person; and denied the resurrection of the dead;
and denied the root, or foundation, (i.e. that there is a God,) and despised his
birthright; and besides, he desired his father's death, and sought to slay his
brother.''

It is common for them to say of him, that he was an ungodly man; and
particularly, that he was a murderer, a robber, Pawnw, "and an adulterer" {y};
and that he has no part in the world to come {z}: who for one morsel of meat
sold his birthright; the account of which is in Ge 25:29 this includes all the
privileges which he had a right unto by being the firstborn; as a peculiar
blessing from his father; a double portion of goods; and dominion over his
brethren: and it is commonly said by the Jews, that the priesthood belonged to
the firstborn, before the Levitical dispensation; and that for this reason, Jacob
coveted the birthright {a}, Esau being a wicked man, and unfit for it. >>



I can’t think of an occasion when Jesus agreed with the scribes and Pharisees. Paul apparently does agree with them on Esau.
 
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Dale

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One doesnt have to distinguish between Esau as a person and Edom as a people, the choosing or otherwise applies to both.

Carl,

I notice that you have quoted the Bible to the effect that God hates Esau, and that there is no way to distinguish between Esau and the nation of Edom.

Did you know that many scholars believe that the Book of Job came out of Edom, that it is Edomite?

Take a look at the Book of Job. We are told over and over that Job is righteous, yet there is no mention of going to the Tabernacle or the Temple. There is no mention of the Ten Commandments, Moses or the Law of Moses. Job does not celebrate a Jewish Sabbath.

When Job’s three friends, Eliphaz the Temanite, Bildad the
Shuhite and Zophar the Naamathite, heard about all the
troubles that had come upon him, they set out from their
homes and met together by agreement to go and sympathise
with him and comfort him. --Job 2:11 NIV


None of Job’s friends are Israelites. The first to be mentioned is Eliphaz the Temanite. Teman is a place in Edom, Eliphaz the Temanite is an Edomite. Likewise, Bildad the Shuhite and Zophar the Naamathite are from peoples known to the Israelites, but they are not Israelites.

There is no doubt that Job is a monotheist and the Book of Job is monotheist, but there are signs that Job wasn’t Jewish and the Book of Job is not of Jewish origin.

If God hates Edom and the Edomites, that apparently doesn’t extend to those who gave us the Book of Job, since it is part of the OT scripture.
 
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Carl Emerson

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Carl,

I notice that you have quoted the Bible to the effect that God hates Esau, and that there is no way to distinguish between Esau and the nation of Edom.

Did you know that many scholars believe that the Book of Job came out of Edom, that it is Edomite?

Take a look at the Book of Job. We are told over and over that Job is righteous, yet there is no mention of going to the Tabernacle or the Temple. There is no mention of the Ten Commandments, Moses or the Law of Moses. Job does not celebrate a Jewish Sabbath.

When Job’s three friends, Eliphaz the Temanite, Bildad the
Shuhite and Zophar the Naamathite, heard about all the
troubles that had come upon him, they set out from their
homes and met together by agreement to go and sympathise
with him and comfort him. --Job 2:11 NIV


None of Job’s friends are Israelites. The first to be mentioned is Eliphaz the Temanite. Teman is a place in Edom, Eliphaz the Temanite is an Edomite. Likewise, Bildad the Shuhite and Zophar the Naamathite are from peoples known to the Israelites, but they are not Israelites.

There is no doubt that Job is a monotheist and the Book of Job is monotheist, but there are signs that Job wasn’t Jewish and the Book of Job is not of Jewish origin.

If God hates Edom and the Edomites, that apparently doesn’t extend to those who gave us the Book of Job, since it is part of the OT scripture.

Interesting point - most folks of course miss that Job (the righteous) repented...

Do we not see that God's grace cuts across general, to reach the particular... Rahab is another example.
 
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Dale

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On why many scholars think that Job is Edomite in origin:


<<… those who hold that the author was an Edomite state that the references to civil and moral prescriptions represent practices in force among all ancient civilized nations; that the author was obviously a learned man and consequently familiar with the “wisdom” of other nations, and able to read Israelite writings easily, since his own language was only dialectically different from Hebrew; and finally that “Yahweh” is never used in the poem proper, where the various terms for “God” are used, on of which designates the deity that comes from Teman in Edom. Further, the Hebrew of Job is unusual, being strongly influenced by Arabic and Aramaic … >>


Harper’s Bible Dictionary, 1973 Edition, under Job, the Book of
 
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Carl Emerson

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Book of Hebrews offers us another perspective.

The perspective of Hebrews while emphasising Godless behaviour, does not eliminate the matter of predestination clearly stated by Paul.

I think this is grasping after straws to question one scripture based on lack of specific detail in another.

I see Scripture as being harmonious rather than being at odds with itself.
 
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Dale

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The perspective of Hebrews while emphasising Godless behaviour, does not eliminate the matter of predestination clearly stated by Paul.

I think this is grasping after straws to question one scripture based on lack of specific detail in another.

I see Scripture as being harmonious rather than being at odds with itself.

Predestinationists have been taught that the Book of Romans is of supreme importance and they have trouble taking anything else in the Bible seriously. The Book of Hebrews is more important than you think it is. The phrase “new covenant” does not appear in Romans. “New covenant” appears three times in Hebrews, and it also appears in I Corinthians and II Corinthians. It is important to understand that Jesus brought a New Covenant. We can’t get everything we need to know from Romans.

Carl, you apparently assume that the author of Hebrews would have endorsed predestination if he had gone on at greater length. I don’t believe this is so. It is far more likely that predestinationists have misinterpreted Romans by cherry-picking a handful of verses that they like.
 
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Carl Emerson

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Predestinationists have been taught that the Book of Romans is of supreme importance and they have trouble taking anything else in the Bible seriously. The Book of Hebrews is more important than you think it is. The phrase “new covenant” does not appear in Romans. “New covenant” appears three times in Hebrews, and it also appears in I Corinthians and II Corinthians. It is important to understand that Jesus brought a New Covenant. We can’t get everything we need to know from Romans.

Carl, you apparently assume that the author of Hebrews would have endorsed predestination if he had gone on at greater length. I don’t believe this is so. It is far more likely that predestinationists have misinterpreted Romans by cherry-picking a handful of verses that they like.

Reference to what might not have been written is hardly evidence.

I tend to take Scripture on one level rather than suggesting that one segment carries more weight than another.
 
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Dale

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Reference to what might not have been written is hardly evidence.

I tend to take Scripture on one level rather than suggesting that one segment carries more weight than another.



What you call harmony is simply not looking at what the scripture says.



Here’s something else about Hebrews. The Book of Hebrews tells us more about angels than any other book of the Bible. Just read chapters 1&2.

Another passage from Hebrews:

But God found fault with the people and said:
“The time is coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a
new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of
Judah.
It will not be like the covenant I made with their forefathers
when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt,
because they did not remain faithful to my covenant, and I
turned away from them,
declares the Lord.
Hebrews 8:8-9 NIV

Hebrews doesn’t say that the disobedience of the children of Israel was foreordained. It says that “God found fault” “because they did not remain faithful.” Hebrews points to their behavior, their lack of response to the old covenant.
 
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