"We're Not Out To Hurt Anybody."

[Caitlin.ann]

I think you need to go back to the drawing board and think about what you are saying for a while before trying to make this appeal.

First, Pagans are not mainly composed of Wiccans. Wiccans are only a proportion of Pagans. Of that proportion, you only represent the subproportion with an internet connection.

Paganism includes every religion on planet earth that is not monotheistic and that does not acknowledge in spirit and truth the one true God.

It doesn't matter what you practice if cumulatively it is disobedient and rebellious to the will of God (i.e. God himself). I.e. it doesn't matter how you disobey and rebel, what matters is that you disobey and rebel.

What appears erroneous is your averment (in substance) that wiccans materially represent all pagans. I come from West Africa and over there, there are pagans that do still use human sacrifice and that still do practise disturbing acts. If you think this watered down "internet pop" subset of paganism is a major issue, you really haven't opened up a newspaper and read about real paganism (outside of the US and Hollywood).

Perhaps there are people who are ignorant about Wicca, but ignorance about Wicca does not translate to ignorance about Paganism.

Lastly why do you want christian to stop being ignorant about Wicca. In the grand scheme of things, it isn't really a priority to me as a christian. Being more christ like is what's important and I can't imagine wasting time to learn about what I'm not going to practice.

Wait wait wait! I've been hearing about a lot of Christians lately in the same regions of the world who hunt down innocent people, accuse them of witchcraft and then proceed to kill them in various and horrible ways.

 

[Sitswithamouse]

Wait wait wait! I've been hearing about a lot of Christians lately in the same regions of the world who hunt down innocent people, accuse them of witchcraft and then proceed to kill them in various and horrible ways.

QFT.
You just have to look through the history books, The spanish inqusition comes to mind along with many other burnings in history for not being catholic, protestant etc.

Ho Hum

 

[Steezie]

There are multiple sources of information and this is not disputed by any historians. The Christians were killed because they refused to make sacrifices for the Roman Emperor who the Romans had deified.
Look up the following:
The Persecution of Nero (64 AD)
Domitian (c.90-96)
Trajan (98-117)
Hadrian (117-138)
Marcus Aurelius (161-181)
Septimus Severus (202-211)
Maximus the Thracian (235-251)
Decius (249-251)
Valerian (257-260)
Diocletian / Galerius (303-311)

And how many Christians total died in this whole spate? Roughly.

Look up the Aztecs and the Maya.

Many of the sacrifices that the Aztecs and the Maya conducted were of criminals. During times of war, prisoners of war were also sacrificed but it was mainly criminals and even some willing participants that died on the altars. It was a religious form of capital punishment.

No, but then I'm not the one imagining my roots in a group of nature worshipers who lived in peace and harmony.

Ok if you're going to jab at people, do it right. As I have pointed out...probably a thousand times before. The vast majority of the Pagan community understands that our religion is not that old. Parts of it are, parts go back to the dawn of civilization (Which is true of ANY religion). But the majority of it is a new interpretation. What part of that are you NOT understanding?

 

[Secundulus]

And how many Christians total died in this whole spate? Roughly.

Nobody knows for sure. Probably somewhere between 5000 to 10,000.

Ok if you're going to jab at people, do it right. As I have pointed out...probably a thousand times before. The vast majority of the Pagan community understands that our religion is not that old. Parts of it are, parts go back to the dawn of civilization (Which is true of ANY religion). But the majority of it is a new interpretation. What part of that are you NOT understanding?

I understand perfectly. If you go back to my original post, I was only quoting what a Druid website said.

 

[Steezie]

Nobody knows for sure. Probably somewhere between 5000 to 10,000.

The Spanish Inquisition alone is believed to have executed just under 50,000 people for heresy. The Saxons in 728, The Norwegian Civil War of 995, The Baltic Crusades, The Crusades proper...

Pagans have been responsible for FAR less death and cruelty to Christians than vice versa. People who we historically identify as pagan had a much rougher time at the hands of the Church.

I understand perfectly. If you go back to my original post, I was only quoting what a Druid website said.

Maybe you should listen to PEOPLE, rather than reading one website and making up your mind. Pagans and Wiccans have a term for that

 

[Secundulus]

The Spanish Inquisition alone is believed to have executed just under 50,000 people for heresy.

No, in 160 years there were 804 documented executions. That averages out to about five per year throughout the entire country of Spain.

If you want to continually accuse me of slander, then move out of your glass house and use facts.

 

[Steezie]

No, in 160 years there were 804 documented executions. That averages out to about five per year throughout the entire country of Spain.

If you want to continually accuse me of slander, then move out of your glass house and use facts.

How about you support the facts, where are you getting your numbers from?

 

[Druweid]

I understand perfectly. If you go back to my original post, I was only quoting what a Druid website said.

Are you talking about THIS original post?

It would help if some Pagans did not claim to be Druids, renewing their history form the writings of Caesar's Commentaries. http://www.crystalinks.com/druids.html

First, it is not a "Druid" website, it is a personal webpage. Second, virtually none of the information you have provided exists within the link you provided.

Regards,
-- Druweid

 

[Secundulus]

How about you support the facts, where are you getting your numbers from?

Thankfully, the Spanish Inquisition kept very good records and these are now being sifted through by historians. They paint a very different picture of sentencing patterns to traditional historians. Geoffrey Parker analyzed 49,000 trial records between 1540 and 1700, representing one third of the total, and found 776 executions took place. This suggests a total of about 2,000 in the period reviewed. Earlier records are less well preserved but do not support the picture of a bloodbath usually painted. Henry Kamen (p. 60) does not believe more than a thousand executions took place in the earlier period. However, he points out that the Inquisitors activities were heavily slanted towards Jewish and Moslem communities who would have suffered far more than most from their activities. Recent work, sponsored by the Catholic Church, also points to a significantly lower death toll. Professor Agostino Borromeo, a historian of Catholicism at the Sapienza University in Rome, writes that about 125,000 people were tried by church tribunals as suspected heretics in Spain. Of these, about 1,200 - 2,000 were actually executed, although more killings were performed by non-church tribunals.

Henry Kamen, The Spanish Inquisition: A Historical Revision. (Yale University Press, 1999).

Geoffrey Parker ?Some Recent Work on the Inquisition in Spain and Italy? Journal of Modern History 54:3 1982

http://www.spiritus-temporis.com/spanish-inquisition/death-tolls.html

 

[Sitswithamouse]

Lets not forget that Jews and pagans etc were made to convert or flee, lest they were put to death.

 

[Steezie]

Thankfully, the Spanish Inquisition kept very good records and these are now being sifted through by historians. They paint a very different picture of sentencing patterns to traditional historians. Geoffrey Parker analyzed 49,000 trial records between 1540 and 1700, representing one third of the total, and found 776 executions took place. This suggests a total of about 2,000 in the period reviewed. Earlier records are less well preserved but do not support the picture of a bloodbath usually painted. Henry Kamen (p. 60) does not believe more than a thousand executions took place in the earlier period. However, he points out that the Inquisitors activities were heavily slanted towards Jewish and Moslem communities who would have suffered far more than most from their activities. Recent work, sponsored by the Catholic Church, also points to a significantly lower death toll. Professor Agostino Borromeo, a historian of Catholicism at the Sapienza University in Rome, writes that about 125,000 people were tried by church tribunals as suspected heretics in Spain. Of these, about 1,200 - 2,000 were actually executed, although more killings were performed by non-church tribunals.

Henry Kamen, The Spanish Inquisition: A Historical Revision. (Yale University Press, 1999).

Geoffrey Parker ?Some Recent Work on the Inquisition in Spain and Italy? Journal of Modern History 54:3 1982

http://www.spiritus-temporis.com/spanish-inquisition/death-tolls.html

Ok, that still leaves the Crusades, the Middle Ages, the witchcraft hysteria in the REST of Europe.

 

[Secundulus]

Ok, that still leaves the Crusades, the Middle Ages, the witchcraft hysteria in the REST of Europe.

The Crusades were justified. I don't know of any Middle Ages religious wars. And the witch hysteria was inexcusable.

 

[.Sabre.]

Closed for staff review.

Note: Mod hats aren't working.

 

[[serious]]

[SERIOUS] MOD POST
Thread is being reopened.
Keep it civil please.​

[Serious] mod out​

 

[Steezie]

The Crusades were justified.

How so?

"The Muslims were raiding pilgrim caravans"

No the Bedouin tribes were raiding pilgrim caravans. Caliphs did not have authority over the Bedouins and other desert tribes nor did they have the military power to seek them out.

I don't know of any Middle Ages religious wars.

There was MASSIVE religious upheaval during the Middle Ages. Trials and executions for heresy, the extermination of the Cathars, persecution of Jews. While no one single event stands out (that I can recall off the top of my head) it was still a bloody period in Christendom's history

And the witch hysteria was inexcusable.

Kinda my point

 

[NavyGuy7]

Kinda my point

So maybe their point was that we are embarrassed about what was claimed to have been done "in the name of Christ" when neighbors were just out for their neighbors lands (or revenge of some sort). Hardly Christian, if you ask me.
I don't see how one can connect the dots between what Christianity stands for and obvious murders taking place for personal reasons. Yes, they used superstition and such to do it, but it still was the case. Personal motives, not motives "ordained by God".
And believe me, I am being civil, don't think I'm trying to condescend anyone.
*glances nervously at Serious Mod, then realizes it's an LOLCATZ pic, which he adores.*

 

[katautumn]

It's a shame that most people will deny the fact that most Wiccans are genuine, honest, moral, law-abiding folks who prefer to remain private about their religious practices not to be exclusionary, but for the reasons the article in the OP mentioned. It is assumed that because our religion falls under the Occult umbrella that it's inherently devil worship and involves the slaying of black cats to sacrifice to the "dark lord" or that we abduct babies for rituals. And the biggest problem is that many people refuse to educate themselves about our beliefs because they fear the reading materials as much as they fear us - they believe if they read a book on Wicca that they will be opening themselves up to some sort of demonic possession.

"The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he doesn't exist."

It always amuses me when Christians try and use this quote as a means to discredit Wiccans and to try and convince others that we're worshiping satan by default. You throw that quote out there as if it came from the Word of God itself, when it's actually a line from the French short story "The Generous Gambler" written by Charles Baudelaire who was, incidentally, prosecuted on "moral grounds" for some of his printed works. Some of his early published works were considered indecent and he was fined. It's also interesting to note that Baudelaire was also frequently bedded down with hookers and was a drunk. But go right on ahead using his quote to prove that we're all secretly devil worshipers.

Really? How many soup kitchens do Wiccans run? How many drug and alcohol rehab centers have you built? How many thrift stores have you established so the poor can buy inexpensive but good-condition clothing?

You wouldn't know because we don't contribute to charitable organizations with ulterior motives, nor do we feel the need to have some sort of religious name for our charitable efforts. Many of these ministries Christian organizations open up to offer assistance to the less fortunate are many times accompanied by some sort of exchange - we let you buy clothes for your children, you come visit our church on Sunday morning. It's oftentimes viewed as an opportunity to potentially convert someone.

That's a load of bunk. Wiccans are people, no? Therefore they are blatantly self-serving and insincere just like the rest of the world is. The difference is, Christians are forgiven for their mistakes.

If we're people why can't we be treated as such? Why must we be treated as if we have "666" written in kitten blood across our foreheads? And yes, we are people and we have moments where human nature causes us to make bad decisions. So are you saying it's acceptable to be a self-serving Christian, but it's bad to be a self-serving Wiccan? You are trying so hard to prove that you are a better person than the average Wiccan based upon your religious path. Why is that?

Being angry at God sure takes people on strange journeys.

Why would you assume Wiccans are angry with God? Most Wiccans worship a deity.

And FYI, as of 2006, Christianity was again the fastest-growing religion in the world, outpacing Muslim converts by well over 20%. Wicca? Its not even big enough to measure.

What do numbers prove? If Christianity were the smallest religion, percentage-wise based upon world population, and you believed in your heart and soul that it was the correct path for you would you reject it simply because it was the least popular? There are many reasons why Wicca is small in number:

1. You can't accurately determine the percentage of Wiccans in the world. A good majority are solitary practitioners who prefer to not disclose their religion with others. Covens are smaller in scale than your average church congregation.

2. Wicca is a relatively new religion, only being founded in the 1950's. It hasn't had the same head-start Christianity had, even though it has roots in religious practices that pre-date Christianity.

3. There is still an unfortunate stigma that surrounds Pagan sects that would discourage many seekers from joining. We run the risk of discrimination at work, having Child Protective Services called on us, being disowned by our families. Many people in those situations do not feel it is worth the risk.

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

The Crusades were justified.

No they weren't. And the muslims of the day were infinitely more tolerant than their Christian enemies.

 

[Steezie]

And the muslims of the day were infinitely more tolerant than their Christian enemies.

To be fair, this isnt exactly true. There where Christians AND Muslims who were unspeakably cruel to the opposite faith and those who viewed the other with tolerance.

The Muslims killed prisoners of war, the Christians killed and ate Muslim villagers, the Muslims destroyed Christian relics, the Christians killed Muslim civilians. Atrocities were committed on both sides of the line

 

[Secundulus]

the Christians killed and ate Muslim villagers,

Source?