WELS wake up call

[BoC]

Many WELS and even ELS have believed that they are immuned to relevency, contemporary worship or Ablze style body counting. Guess again. :o

wwwdotchurchandchangedotorg
This is the only way I can post a link

 

[Tangible]

(I don't know anything about it, but I'll post the link for you)

Church and Change »

 

[BoC]

(I don't know anything about it, but I'll post the link for you)

Thanks

 

[Studeclunker]

Well... on the surface, which is all I've skimmed so far, it looks okay... Then again, so does Ablaze. So, as James says, I'll watch this and see what kind of fruit it produces. Perhaps, if there are weeds to uproot in this programme they can be removed without destroying the virtuous plant.

WELS needs something. They have such a closed attitude that they're in desparate need of an open window. Elsewise they will suffocate becoming a dying, closed, community. So, this programme might just fill that need. All the same, Boc, your caution is an indication that there are still people who will keep their heads with this.

The basic concept of LCMS' Ablaze programme is a sound one. We as Lutherans must reach out to the ignorant Protestant laity and draw them into the fold of a cofessional, doctrinally sound, Christian Church. The problem is that the programme wandered off into the Church Growth movement and perverted itself. Or perhaps it was perverted by the everpresent liberal element in LCMS. It seems to have been introduced by that same liberal element to pervert the church to the point that it could have been taken down the proverbial garden path.

Church and Change is a growing group of WELS Christians who desire to think and work like the Apostle Paul who said, "I have become all things to all men so that by all possible means I might save some." The Church and Change group is interested in practicing and promoting innovation in ministry methods throughout the WELS especially at the "grass roots" level.

Okay... so far so good. The scary part is the last sentence, "The Church and Change group is interested in practicing and promoting innovation in ministry methods throughout the WELS especially at the "grass roots" level." On one hand this sounds really scary. This is how one introduces error into a Church body. It is how one can introduce it in a way that is almost impossible to uproot. Yet, at the same time, it can be said that WELS needs a fresh breese blowing through its closed and locked windows. As long as they stay with the great Apostle's methondology on not exchanging sound doctrine and theology for convenience and popularity, they should be fine.

The greatest trouble is that the population at large doesn't really want to be saved. They equate being saved with having to behave. Behaving is not fun to them. In fact, this is one of the hardest barriers to get over with people. Especially young people. The great question involved is how to vault this barrier without taking one's denomination, 'over the pales,' so to speak?

 

[Chemnitz]

ZOMG!1!!!!

Did you just say there were things that are okay about Ablaze?

Ooh, I think I hear an angry mob...

 

[DaRev]

ZOMG!1!!!!

Did you just say there were things that are okay about Ablaze?

Ooh, I think I hear an angry mob...

On paper it's a good concept. In practice it's a miserable failure.

 

[twin.spin]

WELS needs something. They have such a closed attitude that they're in desparate need of an open window. Elsewise they will suffocate becoming a dying, closed, community. So, this programme might just fill that need. All the same, Boc, your caution is an indication that there are still people who will keep their heads with this.

WELS has a closed attitude that they're in desparate need.....else become a dying, closed, community ?:o

Some WELS churchs have and are using "new praise" services, depending upon the cities population, some churches have a Hmong services, spanish services, Mandarin services, an inner-city Wandani program, Youth light house center. A dying, closed community is a perception based not what is.

Sound theological doctrine has never been popular. That is why ELS and WELS do not have a "everpresent liberal element that has perverted the LCMS church", but this perversion is nothing compared to what is happening in ELCA.

I do hope that the conservative side of LCMS understands what becomes of a church when it tolerates perverted doctrine...it becomes ELCA

 

[Studeclunker]

On paper it's a good concept. In practice it's a miserable failure.

Exactly!

Twin Spin, huh? Well, judging how you mis-quoted me, I'd say your handle is quite a good fit. Once you have quoted someone, please have the courtesy not to cut and paste to twist what someone says. The claims you have made for the progress of WELS are quite true and also inaccurate. True in that the Synod has been going out of thier way for the last twenty years or so to reach out to a broader range of people. Inaccurate in that many established WELS congregations can be just a bit... cold. I'm not going on just my own experiance on this either. Spin, you are apparently in one of the rapidly growing areas in Arizona, and things are going to be more progressive there. I've lived in inner-city areas and farm communities all my life. Thence comes my experiance with my Synod and my friends impressions expressed to me.


By the by, since this topic has to do with worship outreach:
Paula and I are trying to open a dialog with our Pastor and board as well as the sister church in the Redding area about starting a mission Church in Trinity County. Granted, the whole county has only slightly over ten thousand people, still... The only lutheran church in our county is ELCA. They're nice, though very liberal and have a woman pastor. We need a REAL Lutheran Church in Trinity county and don't know quite how to go about it. I would really rather not drive a bus-load of people down the mountain every Sunday.

Any ideas?

 

[twin.spin]

Exactly!

Twin Spin, huh? Well, judging how you mis-quoted me, I'd say your handle is quite a good fit. Once you have quoted someone, please have the courtesy not to cut and paste to twist what someone says. The claims you have made for the progress of WELS are quite true and also inaccurate. True in that the Synod has been going out of thier way for the last twenty years or so to reach out to a broader range of people. Inaccurate in that many established WELS congregations can be just a bit... cold. I'm not going on just my own experiance on this either. Spin, you are apparently in one of the rapidly growing areas in Arizona, and things are going to be more progressive there. I've lived in inner-city areas and farm communities all my life. Thence comes my experiance with my Synod and my friends impressions expressed to me.


By the by, since this topic has to do with worship outreach:
Paula and I are trying to open a dialog with our Pastor and board as well as the sister church in the Redding area about starting a mission Church in Trinity County. Granted, the whole county has only slightly over ten thousand people, still... The only lutheran church in our county is ELCA. They're nice, though very liberal and have a woman pastor. We need a REAL Lutheran Church in Trinity county and don't know quite how to go about it. I would really rather not drive a bus-load of people down the mountain every Sunday.

Any ideas?

Studeclunker,
Ok, not as to cause problems....
"Or perhaps it was perverted by the everpresent liberal element in LCMS."

I took it to understand that you wrote this in the same paragraph, that meant "it" was refering to sound doctrine that was perverted by the liberal side of LCMS....to which I totally agree. I base this on the fact that many of my relatives are LCMS, and they too expressed these things.
***********************************
I'm no expert, but .... to start a Church a person(s) need to have the same resource that it took to send Apostles and missionaries of years past, namely $$$$.$$ from other christian supporters. Unless a person is wealthy enough to be self-supportive, it's going to be tough.

A true Lutheran Church is doctrinally sound, which maybe why there is only a ELCA church there. I'm not familiar where and what the make-up of trinity county is. You could start by having Time of Grace being watched by people then follow-up with that.

I don't know if you know much about the area of AZ that I live in...but it's not very receptive to Lutheranism.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

I don't think anyone thought we were immune to it, I just think we take a very different approach to it.

The message stays the same. I'm not a huge fan of contemporary services, but the ones I've been to teach and preach the same thing our liturgical services teach.

However, church and change isn't necessarily about promoting contemporary services. One area where we polled strongly said they would attend church if there was a contemporary service. The church in this area ran a 90 day test and had contemporary services every other week. During that 90 day period, attendance rose more than 30 some percent and they received 15 leads on new members. Currently, 10 of those members have completed membership training courses. The lessons and the sermons were the same ones delivered at the liturgical services, yet the music was a bit different and what I would call less formal.

In another area, close by where my husband used to serve, they discovered that a large population of spanish people occupied the neighborhoods. These people were not being serviced by a particular congregation, so our church in that area proposed opening a Hispanic Center in conjunction with the church. Now we have a called worker there who is fluent in Spanish, and the center is a bustling of activity.

Church and change hopes to get churches out of the old German mindset that change is never good. Think about how it must've been when the first English Lutheran service was held - that's the kind of stuff we're talking about here.

yes, the world is changing, and while the message doesn't change, sometimes the way we deliver it needs to change. Look at the idea section on that website and you'll get a better idea of what they're talking about. It's about using the means and resources we have available to us to further spread the gospel.

 

[twin.spin]

I particularly am not a fan of the contemporary, almost to the point of saying not at all. From all of the contemporary I've been to, it seems the point of them is to make worship an entertainment based.

"Church and change hopes to get churches out of the old German mindset that change is never good."

No offense, but this is typical sterotyping. Just how long will this be used to brow beat the greatest generation ( the one by the way that historically finances church\ missionary fields \ schools\ and those who make a living )

Think of the ramifications if "Church and change hopes to get churches out of the old German mindset that change is never good." is succesfull............just who will the planned giving guy from WELS go to


Sorry, but this is a pet peeve with me. The old German mindset has every right to be proud of their heritage and keep it..just as much as the Mexican, the African American, the Islam, the Jew.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

nobody is saying that old German can't keep their heritage. That's the whole point.

My home church in Lansing STILL has a German service once a month, even though roughly 10 people attend.

This concept doesn't require people to change.

~~~~~

And as I recall, the apostles had NOTHING starting them off. Listen to what Jesus told the disciples when he sent them out:

9Do not take along any gold or silver or copper in your belts; 10take no bag for the journey, or extra tunic, or sandals or a staff; for the worker is worth his keep. 11"Whatever town or village you enter, search for some worthy person there and stay at his house until you leave.
​

~~~~~

What I do know is that the WELS still sticks to her guns on doctrines, many of which do make her seem cold and uninviting if just looked at out of context. Closed communion, for example, and our fellowship doctrines, turn many people off to our churches because that's not the lovey-dovey gospel they want to hear. I know churches where the congregations are as warm as ever to visitors, yet once they realize that they can't just walk up and take communion or that we don't pray with other synods/denominations, they just don't come back.

There's a reason the big megachurches preaching prosperity gospel and "do what feels good" gospel are showing big attendances. It's because rather than preaching the law and gospel in a correct fashion, they're giving the itchy ears exactly what they want to hear.

I'll take a small church attendance with the Truth being preached over a large audience being taken down the path of good intentions any day.

 

[Studeclunker]

I don't think anyone thought we were immune to it, I just think we take a very different approach to it.

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by this statement, Becky.

In another area, close by where my husband used to serve, they discovered that a large population of spanish people occupied the neighborhoods. These people were not being serviced by a particular congregation, so our church in that area proposed opening a Hispanic Center in conjunction with the church. Now we have a called worker there who is fluent in Spanish, and the center is a bustling of activity.

Church and change hopes to get churches out of the old German mindset that change is never good. Think about how it must've been when the first English Lutheran service was held - that's the kind of stuff we're talking about here.

yes, the world is changing, and while the message doesn't change, sometimes the way we deliver it needs to change. Look at the idea section on that website and you'll get a better idea of what they're talking about. It's about using the means and resources we have available to us to further spread the gospel.[/quote]

Becky, take it from someone who is just one generation removed from a German-speaking household: One of the main reasons the Lutheran church switched from German services was WWII. The German people here were afraid of being registered as 'enemy aliens,' like the Japanese were. At that, my Grandmother's family had been here since the Revolution and still they were afraid. Granted, the English services movement had been going on for quite a while before that. However, fear is what finally tipped the scales, historically speaking.

Studeclunker,
Ok, not as to cause problems....
"Or perhaps it was perverted by the everpresent liberal element in LCMS."

I took it to understand that you wrote this in the same paragraph, that meant "it" was refering to sound doctrine that was perverted by the liberal side of LCMS....to which I totally agree. I base this on the fact that many of my relatives are LCMS, and they too expressed these things.
***********************************

Close, and a very salient point I wholeheartedly agree with, but... no cee-gar. The paragraph you are referring to has to do with the Ablaze programme.

I'm no expert, but .... to start a Church a person(s) need to have the same resource that it took to send Apostles and missionaries of years past, namely $$$$.$$ from other christian supporters. Unless a person is wealthy enough to be self-supportive, it's going to be tough.

A true Lutheran Church is doctrinally sound, which maybe why there is only a ELCA church there. I'm not familiar where and what the make-up of trinity county is. You could start by having Time of Grace being watched by people then follow-up with that.

I don't know if you know much about the area of AZ that I live in...but it's not very receptive to Lutheranism.

I'm sure that if we waited for the wealthy to plant Churches we will see the Church wither and die. Often, the wealthy won't get on the wagon till things are going along rather strongly. In fact, we watch a video once or twice a month that has to do with news in the WELS community. They show missions efforts across the country. I haven't noticed a large number of wealthy people starting new churches. No, I believe we must work on this without waiting for the world to provide. We should attempt to work this waiting on the Lord. He will provide if it is his will to plant a church in this desert of proper doctrine and theology.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by this statement, Becky.

What I mean is that no one in the WELS is thinking that we're immune to the problems that contemporary services can bring...rather, we're quite aware of the pitfalls and working to avoid them.

Becky, take it from someone who is just one generation removed from a German-speaking household: One of the main reasons the Lutheran church switched from German services was WWII. The German people here were afraid of being registered as 'enemy aliens,' like the Japanese were. At that, my Grandmother's family had been here since the Revolution and still they were afraid. Granted, the English services movement had been going on for quite a while before that. However, fear is what finally tipped the scales, historically speaking.

In some cases I'm sure that's true. At my home church, the decision was made to go to English services when the majority of the people spoke English rather than German. And people complained about it. People complained when a late service was added. People complained when summer worship hours were adjusted to help out the farmers in the area. People complained when the school was started.

There will always be naysayers who will find something to complain about. "The service is too long" "the service is too short" "I don't like Pastor so-and-so" "Why did they air condition everything but the church?" "Why are they holding Monday night services in the chapel?"

The list goes on and on. I remember when our choir sang something from Christian Worship that wasn't a common tune...people complained about that - "we want to hear traditional, familiar hymns during church".

All we seem to hear about are the people who say no, no, no. Church & Change is about listening to the people who say yes, yes, yes.

Again, not talking about changing the message, but changing the way it's being delivered.

 

[DaRev]

What I mean is that no one in the WELS is thinking that we're immune to the problems that contemporary services can bring...rather, we're quite aware of the pitfalls and working to avoid them.



In some cases I'm sure that's true. At my home church, the decision was made to go to English services when the majority of the people spoke English rather than German. And people complained about it. People complained when a late service was added. People complained when summer worship hours were adjusted to help out the farmers in the area. People complained when the school was started.

There will always be naysayers who will find something to complain about. "The service is too long" "the service is too short" "I don't like Pastor so-and-so" "Why did they air condition everything but the church?" "Why are they holding Monday night services in the chapel?"

The list goes on and on. I remember when our choir sang something from Christian Worship that wasn't a common tune...people complained about that - "we want to hear traditional, familiar hymns during church".

All we seem to hear about are the people who say no, no, no. Church & Change is about listening to the people who say yes, yes, yes.

Again, not talking about changing the message, but changing the way it's being delivered.

We have a name for that: "Transforming Churches Network". Yet another 'church growth' offshoot of Ablaze.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

except we don't have some membership goal in mind. We just want people to hear the gospel. I think that's the main problem with Ablaze. It's like you gotta fill some quota or something. It's putting the focus on the wrong area. A church is nothing, regardless of the number of people on the roster or in the pews, if it's not teaching proper doctrine. It seems that Ablaze cares more about the numbers than the message.

WELS is trying to avoid the trap of doing whatever it takes just to get people into the pews. I know there are some churches out there who will tell people "we'll give you a supper, but you gotta go to church first", and then it looks like their attendance is up when really the people are just being bribed.

Don't think for one moment that the synod officials aren't watching Ablaze and seeing what's going on. (That was too many double negatives.)

 

[twin.spin]

I'm sure that if we waited for the wealthy to plant Churches we will see the Church wither and die. Often, the wealthy won't get on the wagon till things are going along rather strongly. .

I will admit that generally speaking the wealthy don't get on the wagon. However there examples to the contrary in the Bible. To be a centurion, tax collector or a prominent person usually carried along with that wealth.

• The Faith of the Centurion (Matthew 8:5)
• Cornelius the centurion (Acts 10:22)
• Joseph of Arimathea (Mark 15:43)
• In Thessalonica God-fearing Greeks and not a few prominent women (Acts 17:4)
• In Berea a number of prominent Greek women and many Greek men. (Acts 17:12)
• Lydia, a dealer in purple cloth from the city of Thyatira (Acts 16:14)
• Levi son of Alphaeus (a tax collector) who held a great banquet for Jesus at his house and a large crowd of tax collectors and others were eating with them. (Luke 5:29)
• Zacchaeus the Tax Collector a chief tax collector and was wealthy. (Luke 19:2)

 

[Studeclunker]

I will admit that generally speaking the wealthy don't get on the wagon. However there examples to the contrary in the Bible. To be a centurion, tax collector or a prominent person usually carried along with that wealth.

• The Faith of the Centurion (Matthew 8:5)
• Cornelius the centurion (Acts 10:22)
• Joseph of Arimathea (Mark 15:43)
• In Thessalonica God-fearing Greeks and not a few prominent women (Acts 17:4)
• In Berea a number of prominent Greek women and many Greek men. (Acts 17:12)
• Lydia, a dealer in purple cloth from the city of Thyatira (Acts 16:14)
• Levi son of Alphaeus (a tax collector) who held a great banquet for Jesus at his house and a large crowd of tax collectors and others were eating with them. (Luke 5:29)
• Zacchaeus the Tax Collector a chief tax collector and was wealthy. (Luke 19:2)

LOL, good point. However, most of those people are just about two thousand years late. But seriously, send a few out here to Trinity County. The scenery is great and so's the fishing! We need a decent church and I'm tired of driving a ninety mile round trip to Church.

 

[twin.spin]

We need a decent church and I'm tired of driving a ninety mile round trip to Church.[/FONT]

That is understandable. My wife is from Billings, where she said there was a few members who drove from Wyoming ...100 miles each way.