WELS/LCMS merger

[LutheranHawkeye]

Could someone explain to me the differences between the WELS and LCMS and why they are divided. If they are both confessional don't you think the minor differences could be resolved? Because when the Elca finally explodes they're probably gonna turn to the LCMS or WELS and it would be great if they were united. LOL

 

[Protoevangel]

http://www.lcms.org/pages/internal.asp?NavID=2149

Q. What are the main differences between the Missouri Synod and the Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod (WELS)?


A. From the LCMS perspective, the three main theological differences between the LCMS and the WELS are the following:

1) The biblical understanding of fellowship.
The WELS holds to what is called the "unit concept" of fellowship, which places virtually all joint expressions of the Christian faith on the same level. In an official statement made in 1960 the WELS states, "Church fellowship should therefore be treated as a unit concept, covering every joint expression, manifestation, and demonstration of a common faith" (Doctrinal Statements of the Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod, 1970, pp. 51-52). The LCMS, however, has historically not understood or practiced church fellowship in this way. Our Synod, for example, has made a distinction between altar and pulpit fellowship (for which full doctrinal agreement is required) and other manifestations of Christian fellowship, such as prayer fellowship (which do not necessarily require full doctrinal agreement). Disagreements on this issue led the Wisconsin to break fellowship with the LCMS in 1961.

2) The doctrine of the ministry.
With respect to the doctrine of the ministry, since the days of C. F. W. Walther our Synod has held that the office of the public ministry (the pastoral office) according to the Scriptures is the one divinely established office in the church, while the church possesses the freedom to create other offices, by human institution, from time to time to assist in the carrying out of the functions of the pastoral ministry. The WELS' Theses on Church and Ministry, however, expressly deny that the pastoral ministry is specifically instituted by the Lord in contrast to other forms of public ministry (see Doctrinal Statements, pp. 9-11; cf. the Commission on Theology and Church Relations' 1981 report on The Ministry: Office, Procedures, and Nomenclature.

3) The role of women in the church. While both the LCMS and the WELS strongly oppose the ordination of women to the pastoral office on Scriptural grounds, the LCMS has concluded that the Scriptures do not forbid woman suffrage in the church. The WELS opposes woman suffrage in the church as contrary to the Scriptures.

 

[LutheranHawkeye]

Those are a lot of strong conflicts. No wonder the LCMS doesn't want to merge.

 

[DaRev]

Those are a lot of strong conflicts. No wonder the LCMS doesn't want to merge.

There would have to be some major changes on both sides before even full fellowship would again be possible, let alone a merger.

I truly wish that the LCMS could once again engage in a working relationship with the WELS/ELS instead of the ELCA.

 

[C.F.W. Walther]

I agree. WELS is more akin to the confessional side of our synod (LCMS).

 

[C.F.W. Walther]

The Wisconsin Synod terminated fellowship with the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod in 1961 because of differences in the doctrine and practice of church fellowship. Over the years the Missouri Synod had departed from the doctrine and practice of fellowship long held by the members of the Synodical Conference in which the Wisconsin Synod and the Missouri Synod shared confessional fellowship.

The Wisconsin Synod teaches that agreement on all the teachings of Scripture is necessary for all forms of fellowship. The Missouri Synod teaches that full agreement is necessary only for altar and pulpit fellowship. Wisconsin teaches that the same scriptural principles apply to all forms of church or religious fellowship. All joint prayer is an expression of fellowship. Missouri teaches that there can be joint prayer that is not an act of fellowship. In practice Missouri also indicates that full agreement is not necessary for worship at occasional joint Christian celebrations, Reformation services, convocations, rallies. Some Missouri pastors allow "ecumenical wedding services" at which pastors or priests outside their fellowship may participate.

Wisconsin practices "close" or "closed" communion, inviting to our altars only those who are members of congregations in our fellowship. Although Missouri officially teaches "close(d)" communion, many pastors and churches practice "open" communion, allowing joint communion with those not in doctrinal agreement with the Missouri Synod.

There are also differences in the doctrine of the church and ministry between the two synods. Wisconsin teaches that God has not ordained any particular form of the church. The invisible church is present in the local congregation and the synod. Both can be called church in the same sense. Missouri's official teaching seems to be that the local congregation is the only "divinely appointed" form of the church. By contrast the synod is a human arrangement.

Wisconsin teaches that the pastor of a local congregation is only one form of the divinely instituted public ministry. Other forms are teachers, professors, called administrators, etc. The specific form is determined by the church's call. Missouri seems to teach that the only divinely instituted form of the public ministry is that of pastor of a local congregation. All other positions are auxiliary to this. However, there appears to be a number of different teachings on the church and ministry in the Missouri Synod.

Because Scripture assigns the headship role to men and a helping role to women, only men serve in offices and roles that involve an exercise of authority over other men. Missouri does not allow women to serve as pastors but allows women to serve in a number of areas which involve the exercise of authority over men.

A continuing problem in the Missouri Synod seems to be an unwillingness or inability to exercise doctrinal discipline with those who teach and practice contrary to Scripture or the public doctrine of the Missouri Synod.

http://www.wels.net/cgi-bin/site.pl?1518&cuTopic_topicID=62&cuItem_itemID=7722

 

[LutheranHawkeye]

So much for ecumenism and women well....being anything else than slaves. That must be why the wels is such a small denomination and I wouldn't say that the wels is anymore confessional than the lcms.

 

[Protoevangel]

So much for ecumenism and women well....being anything else than slaves.

This is an incredibly unfair statement regarding our brothers and sisters in the WELS.

Instead of slamming WELS in such a divisive manner, perhaps you could start a thread to discuss our relative understandings of the Scriptural roles of men and women in the Church. I am sure our resident WELS members would be willing to enter into a civilized and charitable discussiion with you, if you are indeed interested.

 

[Jim47]

This is an incredibly unfair statement regarding our brothers and sisters in the WELS.

Instead of slamming WELS in such a divisive manner, perhaps you could start a thread to discuss our relative understandings of the Scriptural roles of men and women in the Church. I am sure our resident WELS members would be willing to enter into a civilized and charitable discussiion with you, if you are indeed interested.

Its O'k Dan. I've grown used to it and I'm sure he doen't have a full understand of the whys. I am just starting a study of fellowship practices with my Pastor and the board of elders. Fellowship practices is the number one cause of concern with us, because we are always getting the long face and we too long to have fellowship with LCMS and others.

The book we are studing is "Church Fellowship" by John Brug. This will likley take us monthes because we go over every detail and many scriptures.

If anyone is interested in seeing what the WELS has to say about this please follow this link below. Peace to all, I do call you all brothers and sisters even though I can not fellowship with you, because I know you are all members if The Holy Christian Church

There 314 responces here, most reguarding this subject
http://www.wels.net/cgi-bin/site.pl?61

 

[LutheranHawkeye]

Sorry for offending you Danhead, but from what I read that's how I felt at the time. Now that I think about it, it was a very rude comment and I'm sorry. Hopefully some day we can combine. A good name would be the lels.

 

[C.F.W. Walther]

Its O'k Dan. I've grown used to it and I'm sure he doen't have a full understand of the whys. I am just starting a study of fellowship practices with my Pastor and the board of elders. Fellowship practices is the number one cause of concern with us, because we are always getting the long face and we too long to have fellowship with LCMS and others.

The book we are studing is "Church Fellowship" by John Brug. This will likley take us monthes because we go over every detail and many scriptures.

If anyone is interested in seeing what the WELS has to say about this please follow this link below. Peace to all, I do call you all brothers and sisters even though I can not fellowship with you, because I know you are all members if The Holy Christian Church

There 314 responces here, most reguarding this subject
http://www.wels.net/cgi-bin/site.pl?61

Hey Jim The link doesn't produce anything except a blank page with a search engine so I just typed in "fellowship". Came up with a bunch of goodies. Ever since the LCMS debacle I've been leaning towards WELS but the church bodies are few and far between and since I'm thinking about moving to Utah in a year they will probably be non existent. I'll have to start one of my own

 

[Jim47]

Hey Jim The link doesn't produce anything except a blank page with a search engine so I just typed in "fellowship". Came up with a bunch of goodies. Ever since the LCMS debacle I've been leaning towards WELS but the church bodies are few and far between and since I'm thinking about moving to Utah in a year they will probably be non existent. I'll have to start one of my own

Sorry about that. I don't know how to pretest my links, but what I did was ope their Q&A forum and then searched with the words "Unit concept". There is a bunch of them.

Good luck on your move. I was to Utah once back in 1984 passing through on a vacation. We were pulling a liitle pop up camper with a Chevy Blazer with a very little V-6. I remmeber one hill I had it floored in 2nd hear and couldn't make her go any faster. Lots of vertical terrain out there.

 

[LutheranHawkeye]

After thinking about it the wels/lcms are extremely close. Do you honestly think that we could go back in fellowship with them? Or are these issues bigger than they appear to me?

 

[Protoevangel]

Sorry for offending you Danhead, but from what I read that's how I felt at the time. Now that I think about it, it was a very rude comment and I'm sorry. Hopefully some day we can combine. A good name would be the lels.

Hey bro. No problem from my end. I'm not WELS, and the only people I know who are, are from here and Lutherquest (besides some from a congregation I visited a few weeks ago.)

What made me speak up is the fact that as much as I disagree with some of the conclusions the WELS come to, I have followed their logic on these issues, and find them to be Scriptural, Confessional, and above all, loving.

Do I think there could be fellowship again? The LCMS would have to eliminate some of it's more tenacious liberal factions, among other things. I am not sure all of the changes that the WELS would require from the LCMS would be good. But I would prefer the LCMS to pursue fellowship with the WELS rather than flirting with the ELCA, as they are doing.

 

[C.F.W. Walther]

Hey bro. No problem from my end. I'm not WELS, and the only people I know who are, are from here and Lutherquest (besides some from a congregation I visited a few weeks ago.)

What made me speak up is the fact that as much as I disagree with some of the conclusions the WELS come to, I have followed their logic on these issues, and find them to be Scriptural, Confessional, and above all, loving.

Do I think there could be fellowship again? The LCMS would have to eliminate some of it's more tenacious liberal factions, among other things. I am not sure all of the changes that the WELS would require from the LCMS would be good. But I would prefer the LCMS to pursue fellowship with the WELS rather than flirting with the ELCA, as they are doing.

Ditto. I would rather see fellowhip with WELS and also TAALC and ELS. Actually I don't see any differance between the three. Wonder if there is any. Mayby Jim can answer that.

 

[DaRev]

Ditto. I would rather see fellowhip with WELS and also TAALC and ELS. Actually I don't see any differance between the three. Wonder if there is any. Mayby Jim can answer that.

The TAALC is actually much closer to the LCMS concerning fellowship than to the WELS/ELS. Otherwise, they would have never relocated their Seminary to the CTS Fort Wayne campus... nor would Fort Wayne have allowed it. I believe that further talk of fellowship with TAALC may very well be on the agenda at the next Synodical Convention.


DaRev

 

[LutheranHawkeye]

How many liberal factions do we have? I hope they're the minority. Is our president liberal?

 

[Virgil the Roman]

I'm inquiring about Wels lutheran church. since i'm not a lutheran, i'm asking as to how big this synod is. wels, has wisconsin in it's name, so i think it's safe of me to say it's based in wisconsin, but how widespread is it? I'm curious as to if there are any near by me. i don't know how regional synods are/aren't, being as i'm nonlutheran. would you think there'd be any in western pennsylvania/eastern ohio area?

 

[C.F.W. Walther]

I'm inquiring about Wels lutheran church. since i'm not a lutheran, i'm asking as to how big this synod is. wels, has wisconsin in it's name, so i think it's safe of me to say it's based in wisconsin, but how widespread is it? I'm curious as to if there are any near by me. i don't know how regional synods are/aren't, being as i'm nonlutheran. would you think there'd be any in western pennsylvania/eastern ohio area?

WELS home page and church locator.

http://www.wels.net/cgi-bin/site.pl?

 

[JFox1]

I'm with the LCMS and my church doesn't believe in open Communion. The pastor told me specifically that some of the members of the congregation have family members who attend ELCA and he wants to keep ELCA out because he doesn't like their practices.