Well,

[Erinwilcox]

I'm Presbyterian now.

 

[xapis]

Welcome

 

[kenrapoza]

Welcome! Which denomination did you join?

 

[Calvinist Dark Lord]

I'm Presbyterian now.

HeHehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehe......


Welcome to the Dark side. We have better cookies. Better behave. Remember, i know your pastor.

You and Patrick have a good Christmas, i'll drop you two a line when i can...a little busy right now. Thanks for the nice note.

 

[Hammster]

I'm Presbyterian now.

Well, nobody's perfect.

 

[LiturgyInDMinor]

 

[ReformedChapin]

about time

 

[heymikey80]

Well, nobody's perfect.

... which is why we're Presbyterian .
In any event, it's a minor difference when the majors are recognized. Welcome, Erin. It can get kinda weird, so let us know if there're odd situations. We've probably been through them. Some Presbyterians forget they're not perfect either -- just like normal people.

 

[Erinwilcox]

Actually, there is something that we have been pondering that maybe you all could shed some light on . . .

While we totally disagree with the RB way of making someone wait until they are 17 (that was the age my old church set) until they can even be considered for church membership (because nobody younger could possibly be a Christian . . . we feel that this discourages young Christians and sets a high level of "you must achieve x, y, and z before we'll even wonder if you're a Christian"), we are having some problems with the Presbyterian tradition of "confirmation," aka becoming a communicant member.

Teenager after teenager has stood up there before the congregation to profess Christ and join the church and all the can do is smirk at their girlfriends or make eyes at the boys that they like. Judging from the fruits that we have seen from either time spent with them or watching during church (the sour expressions, the audible exclamations of "Finally!" when it is time to sing the doxology), we are having some serious doubts as to the "beneficiality" of confirmation. It seems to be a way to pat the kids on the back and say that they are saved when, in all honesty, they are showing little to no fruit of being converted! The elders say that they have examined the teenager(s) to the best of their ability and have found them to be in Christ, to the best of their ability . . . Anyone who has grown up in the church knows the right things to say. These kids have been catechized and had Bible verses drilled into them. But they lack good fruit. In some of them, their fruit stinks!

We are in a really good PCA church, and the pastor is actually OPC. We love it, but this is one aspect that we are really struggling with. Any thoughts?

 

[Hammster]

... which is why we're Presbyterian .

Well done, my friend.

 

[Epiphoskei]

While we totally disagree with the RB way of making someone wait until they are 17 (that was the age my old church set) until they can even be considered for church membership (because nobody younger could possibly be a Christian . . . we feel that this discourages young Christians and sets a high level of "you must achieve x, y, and z before we'll even wonder if you're a Christian"), we are having some problems with the Presbyterian tradition of "confirmation," aka becoming a communicant member.

If by RB you meant Reformed Baptist, I'll agree with you there. It sprouts from the fact that in so many Baptist churches, "member" and "voting member" are interchangeable, and since children can't vote, they can't be members. Which is not how scripture speaks of membership in the church.

 

[GQ Chris]

Forgot to change your symbol...

 

[heymikey80]

These kids have been catechized and had Bible verses drilled into them. But they lack good fruit. In some of them, their fruit stinks!

We are in a really good PCA church, and the pastor is actually OPC. We love it, but this is one aspect that we are really struggling with. Any thoughts?

Oy.

I have run into this. It's one reason I didn't press kids through catechism class (though I teach this class), and it's also one reason my OP church didn't confirm some kids who had doctrinal head knowledge.

But there can be other issues. A soldier isn't really a soldier 'til he's met the enemy. Some kids continue to think "this is easy" as long as they're protected. Their adherence comes from meeting the tough problems in their real lives: ministering to the poor, befriending the friendless and downright unfriendly, or the "just odd." Or sometimes it really is a doctrinal issue, like confronting people who think "people are basically good", that can lock them into line and discover, "Oh. This is for real."

It's also a possibility that your youth leaders don't have the strength of personality, of social control or of sheer inspiration, to rip the lungs out of a cultural malaise that's set up shop in their youth group. Nobody likes having their kids dislike youth group. But some kids will say things or act certain ways that will make a youth group a spiritual wasteland. They have to be opposed -- and there are right ways of opposing it too. (Some think public opposition is the way to do that -- I don't. Ever.)

It's also possible you may have a problem.

Doctrinal adherence is not Christian faith. If your kids think this, they should not be confirmed by the church. To do so would reintroduce the Halfway Covenant. If your leadership thinks this, they're not Presbyterian. They may be misled by one of the standard historical errors in Presbyterianism, or they may be trying to arbitrate a Baptist or Lutheran theology with a Presbyterian one. At worst they're defying James. Well, at dead-level worst, they'd be gnostics, but let's assume they haven't got that far.

I've run into this issue in other places, too. It takes some strong discernment to recognize the difference, and some fortitude to exclude people from the Body of Christ on such a basis. It's not the same as looking for maturity, nor is it the same as asking questions. Sometimes you just have to ask the hard questions of the kids, directly. "I've noticed you haven't been to any of the service projects our church is doing. What are you doing with Jesus command to redeem the time in your own life?" "I noticed your impatience a few weeks ago at worship. Are you normally impatient to get out of worship, and why do you think you are?" Catechism class cannot make a person a Christian -- it needs to talk about heart issues, but the conclusions of others have to be their own. And elders have to realize they're not a person's "final exam".

 

[itisdeliciouscake]

I think if a church has a confirmation process, it should include giving evidence of suffering for the sake of Christ.

 

[LiturgyInDMinor]

I think if a church has a confirmation process, it should include giving evidence of suffering for the sake of Christ.

Examples?

 

[LiturgyInDMinor]

Also, Erin...don't forget to visit the new Presbyterian Forum here on CF:

Confessional, Covenantal, Creedal - Presbyterian - Christian Forums

 

[heymikey80]

I think if a church has a confirmation process, it should include giving evidence of suffering for the sake of Christ.

Things always sound like a good idea at first -- and then you hit the hard cases: parents isolating or protecting kids, e.g.

There are some really good, sensitive, watershed events in everyone's life. Normally if you can locate those (through say, a recounting of their coming to faith or their Christian walk), you have something to ask them.

It takes some awareness & reflection.