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Well, I thought we'd found a church... but maybe not after all

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eldermike

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And no... I'm not looking here for anyones approval... I was interested though in what the reponces would be here. We are seeking counsel from our most trusted Christian friends, including out Elders from our church back in our home town (where we attended from 1991 to 2002).
Thanks for the additional information. I am as against legalism as anyone I know. But, I am also an elder and I have been in hard situations where I am sure from some prespective I came across as a legalists, which I am not.

And, smoking is not a sin. What can be sin is not submitting to the standards of a fellowship you have joined. But if there is a double standard then I would leave or seek to change it.

I will pray for your decision.

Eldermike
 
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OnederWoman

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eldermike said:
I will pray for your decision.

Eldermike
Thanks...

I am also jsut a bit more emotional than normal... being 4 mths pg I was more easily upset than I usually would be.

And I'm not sure at this point whether we're going to maybe speak to the churches pastor and get a better idea of where the church stands on these issues and whether we'd ever be a good fit there.... or if we're going to just take this as it's time to continue our search yet again.
 
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eldermike

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And I'm not sure at this point whether we're going to maybe speak to the churches pastor and get a better idea of where the church stands on these issues and whether we'd ever be a good fit there.... or if we're going to just take this as it's time to continue our search yet again.
That sounds like a good plan to me.

Eldermike
 
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Jim B

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eldermike said:
You may not like this, It's not meant to offend you in any way.

You might be leaving the right church for the wrong reason. God moves us to places and circumstances that creates growth in us.

You may feel hurt by what that Elder said. But think about this some more. Leadership has high standards, not set by men, but by God. When Paul sent Timothy out, He was ready!. He told Timothy to choose leaders and gave Him standards to go by. Today's church (in way to many cases) is all about our feelings, and this is wrong.

If God sent you to an Elder that told you to change something, change it, and then see if He's wrong. If He's wrong then leave. Seek God in all things. Read 1'st and 2'nd Timothy and evaluate this Christian leaders statements from God's perspective.

Please don't seek justification from us, seek God.

Eldermike
Hey Elder,

The problem with rules and man-made traditions, even for leader’s, is that we tend to judge the external, visible transgressions. Who knows how many “leaders” surf porno sites in private, or drink and use profanity when away from church members, or think vile thoughts, or flirt with other people’s spouses, or …etc.etc., ad infinitum?

When such hypocrisy such comes to light, which it does (all too often), it makes our silly rules seem what they are … stupid. And everyone in our group is justly labeled a hypocrite. If God took the lid off every one of our lives, including our leaders, who among us could throw the first stone?

I say, follow Christ’s advice and stop trying to extract motes from other’s eyes and tend to your own beam.

Jim
\o/
 
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eldermike

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The problem with rules and man-made traditions, even for leader’s, is that we tend to judge the external, visible transgressions. Who knows how many “leaders” surf porno sites in private, or drink and use profanity when away from church members, or think vile thoughts, or flirt with other people’s spouses, or …etc.etc., ad infinitum?
This is a justification method. You can extend this to it's failure point eaisly enough. Why have church at all, someone will just let you down.

God gave us a roadmap to life, I for one am not going to throw it out over the sins and failures of some Christian leaders. We are to gather together to spur one another on to good works. The very reason to gather is to encourage one another out of the very sins you mentioned. Accountability is a missing element in todays Christian church.

I have heard it said that "I only answer to God"
Now would someone show me in the bible where this is a true biblical concept? Don't bother because the bible is full of mentoring, from first page to last. There is no ministry unit of one. Even your gifts are to be used to bless others, not yourself. You can't function as a Christian apart from your missing gifts. We are branches, not a tree that stands alone.

Mike
 
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Plan 9

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What I don't understand is why this church doesn't make these requirements known right up front. Issuing a simple pamphlet and making it available, as non-denominational churches routinely do with their doctrinal statements and practices, would have allowed Oneder Woman's family to come to a decision without suffering any hurt or bewilderment whatsoever.
I think it's unethical to welcome them and encourage them to be involved and then lower the boom on them in the way that this church did when they could have made their standards for their members perfectly clear at the outset.
Because of the way the church went about this, I don't think Oneder Woman is overracting one bit.
Let's take Eldermike as an example. I don't know him as well as I'd like, but he is obviously an open, welcoming and ethical man; he has been very kind and patient with me, never leaping to the conclusions others sometimes do about me here, and I imagine his church as being equally forbearing, so that no matter what standards are set for its members, new members are made aware of them as soon as possible as possible. :)
Standards do vary, even among very conservative churches, and I can't imagine any church not wanting to make such strict standards clear from the get-go. CF itself makes every effort to do this, and doing so makes it easier for all of us, mods (elders) and members alike.
It's not that this church has such strict standards which bothers me, but that this method by which they're "revealed" at a later time is slipshod at best, and unethical at worst.
I smoke myself, and I quit while attending Bible college, but I knew that not smoking there was a requirement, along with others, before I chose it. That's only fair, just as it was only fair that I adhere to them as best I could, and it saved me much potential hurt and bewilderment to have those standards clearly laid out for me in advance. It was good for everyone, teachers and students, to have such issues out of the way so that we could all get on with teaching and learning.

Btw, we were only required to refrain from smoking on campus, but I felt that the spirit of the law was best followed by quitting entirely,even though that wasn't expected of us students.
Another poster here seemed to be expressing the opinion that everyone can quit smoking at the drop of a hat, but that's not true of most smokers, and OW's husband could be better helped in this effort by having the support of his church as he struggles to do so, not its condemnation.
OW, with your permission, I will pray for your husband that he win his battle; I know it's one he can win if he doesn't lose heart and that God will help him, but any man who works so hard to benefit his church immediately after first attending should be treasured there, whether he smokes at home, or not. Anyone who cares to look up the statistics knows that women are most active in outreaches and church affairs of all kinds, and outnumber men in attendance, too.
I applaud him, and if OW's family lived in my area, I would be thrilled to invite them to my church, and would fervently hope that they would love it enough to make it their home!
 
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eldermike

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Standards do vary, even among very conservative churches, and I can't imagine any church not wanting to make such strict standards clear from the get-go. CF itself makes every effort to do this, and doing so makes it easier for all of us, mods (elders) and members alike.
I totally agree with this. Prespective/new member classes should clearly lay out the mission and standards, any rules and expectations of members and leaders.

Eldermike
 
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countrymousenc

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What I don't understand is why this church doesn't make these requirements known right up front. Issuing a simple pamphlet and making it available, as non-denominational churches routinely do with their doctrinal statements and practices, would have allowed Oneder Woman's family to come to a decision without suffering any hurt or bewilderment whatsoever.
I think it's unethical to welcome them and encourage them to be involved and then lower the boom on them in the way that this church did when they could have made their standards for their members perfectly clear at the outset.

If I may chime in, I think Plan 9 has a good point. While I'm all for (obviously) submitting to godly leadership, it doesn't sound as though that's what the church in question is providing. What they've done is manipulative and sneaky, and I'm afraid that if you stayed, that's what you'd get more of. In this particular instance, you'd be right to get out.

Pray and seek the guidance of our Lord Jesus Christ, and may He bless you on your journey.
 
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MParedon

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To the OP, I haven't read all the other posts, but my suggestion is maybe you should stay with that church and do what they want. It may be a nudge from the holy spirit to be obediant. Then again, you might want to step back and look at all of their doctrine, are you wanting to leave b/c of that specific incident? or are you wanting to leave because there is absolutely no way you can reconsile yourself with the whole of their beliefs?
 
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OnederWoman

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MParedon said:
To the OP, I haven't read all the other posts, but my suggestion is maybe you should stay with that church and do what they want. It may be a nudge from the holy spirit to be obediant. Then again, you might want to step back and look at all of their doctrine, are you wanting to leave b/c of that specific incident? or are you wanting to leave because there is absolutely no way you can reconsile yourself with the whole of their beliefs?
Our opinion of their "standards" is that they were made by men with good intentions, but from the flesh and not from seeking the Holy Spirit.
 
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MParedon

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OnederWoman said:
Our opinion of their "standards" is that they were made by men with good intentions, but from the flesh and not from seeking the Holy Spirit.
Oh, well I guess there are two ways to go about it. In my faith we aren't supposed to leave a parish 'cause of disagreements but stay and do our darndest to change it for the better (usually it's b/c some parishes are sadly lacking in fellowship and people tend to abandon ship, but there are other issues too). So that could be one option: stay and then try to lead them to seek the Holy Spirit more instead of the good intentions from the flesh.

Or, you could go, but I would make sure that the next church you go to has all their ducks in a row. Find out what they believe and why and then make sure that they don't waver from it.

I guess my opinion is a bit hardnosed, sorry, but I really do hope I help.

Wells here's a hug for you no matter what happens:hug:
 
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OnederWoman

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MParedon said:
Oh, well I guess there are two ways to go about it. In my faith we aren't supposed to leave a parish 'cause of disagreements but stay and do our darndest to change it for the better (usually it's b/c some parishes are sadly lacking in fellowship and people tend to abandon ship, but there are other issues too). So that could be one option: stay and then try to lead them to seek the Holy Spirit more instead of the good intentions from the flesh.

Or, you could go, but I would make sure that the next church you go to has all their ducks in a row. Find out what they believe and why and then make sure that they don't waver from it.

I guess my opinion is a bit hardnosed, sorry, but I really do hope I help.

Wells here's a hug for you no matter what happens:hug:
You have to remember also that we've been church hunting since we moved here a year ago. Also... we consider ourselves non-denominational, so we are not tied to a specific denomination. At our old church which we attended for over 10 years of course there were times of disagreement... and we never ran out or anything... so it's not like we've never been commited to a chruch long term. Right now we're just trying to find a church we can consider home and commit to. We thought this one might be it, but we were only there 6 weeks and apparently under 6 weeks was not enough time to figure out what they were all about. I heard a program on Christian radio about looking for a church home and even they said it takes about 2 months of attending a church to really know whether it's the one or not (of course some we've been able to know that just from one visit). This was just the roughest experiance thus far... the others we tried the break was easy, nothing was really wrong in those places, we just knew it wasn't the place for us. This time we got hurt.
 
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