Well, I thought we'd found a church... but maybe not after all

[OnederWoman]

Well... after our search of over a year I had thought we'd finally found a church with a good kids program and lots of opportunity for us to get involved. Ds has been going Sun mornings and Wed nights and dh and I have been helping Wed nights, dh did clown ministry for the childrens church this past Sunday (he was a hit with all) and had been asked back on a once a month basis (plus extra for special events) and we had made plans to go on a mission trip in June to an Indian reservation where we were going to do some clowning as part of a VBS program. We were really excited about everything and just last night I sent out a family update email to all our friends and family telling them about all that was going on...

THEN....

Tonight at Awanas dh was told by one of the leaders that he couldn't continue helping with Awanas because he smokes. Even though dh is trying to quit... and even though there are other Awanas helpers who smoke (but have agreed to not smoke on church property). I was very hurt for dh. I know dh's heart for God, his faith and love for the Lord. I know dh's heart for children. I know the man dh is. I guess we're just new and they just don't know who dh is and see his outward faults and not his heart. We each talked to our Moms... and they both pretty much said we may need to move on. We were told by the childrens director that we may want to try the Baptist church across town... apparently when they got this new younger pastor who is for total abstenance of smoking and drinking they lost several members who went over to the other where they are more "liberal" and allow smoking and a glass of wine with a meal. We found it interesting that to be in the choir at church you have to sign a contract to not drink, smoke, see R rated movies or watch questionable TV shows. So, I wondered if that meant that the choir members aren't allowed to go see movies like the Passion of the Christ, Schindlers List or the Patriot (Mel Gibson)? And if their kids are allowed to watch movies like
Brother Bear, that while rated G is full of New Age thought? I agree that there are movies and television we should maybe avoid... but I don't know that we can judge them soley based on ratings.

Anyways.... please pray for our hearts... mine especially, I'm afraid that my hurt may turn into bitterness (I have been praying about this all evening though). Pray that we would be able to know if God wants us to move on or to stay. We want His guidence in what to do.

 

[Protestant Minister]

There's something wrong with this picture.Your message clearly explains the faulty rules of the minister but if you want to stay in the church you need to accept his decisions.And you DO want to stay in the church.The first part of your message explains how much the church is helping you So it looks like what's wrong with the picture is an emotional over-reaction to church authority..

Let's try a different approach.The best thing to do is to eliminate the smoking habit so the conflict with the church disappears.There certainly can be no doubt in your mind about the danger of smoking.In fact several years ago I was doing some research on cigarettes.I started to make a list of all the illnesses that they either cause or contribute to.When the list reached 100,I quit out of exhaustion.The truth is that nicotine affects all organs in the body..It contains over 2,000 chemicals many of which are toxic.So your minister does have reason to be alarmed by anyone who snokes.

Next question:how can your relative stop?It's only really hard for the first few days.After that the addiction really starts to lessen.In fact,primarily what is required is discipline.But there are treatments such as hypnosis and accupuncture that help.The American Lung Assn. or a hospital in your area may offer stop smoking classes.Going to a minister who has the gift of healing and asking God to be cured of the addiction is another way that will work,with enough faith that is.

The worst problem here is that you are on the verge of becoming "bitter" over what is a rather easily solved medical problem. And that can create seriious spiritual problems.If your relative will just get rid of his nasty habit,you can once again establish the important relationship with your church.Failure to do so can easily l create anger and unforgiveness and that can separate you from God.This addiction problem just isn't worth it.Help your relative get the help he needs.

 

[OnederWoman]

Well... first... I don't know that this church is doing anything "for" us that another couldn't. And it has been said it takes a good month or two to really find out if a church is good for you or not.

Second... LEGALISM. It's not a matter of not being able to accept authority... but a matter of not agreeing that the churches authority is matching up to God's word. Even if the smoking issue is taken care of, which of course we both are striving for with or without this particular church... there are still other issues of whether or not wine is ever allowable or not. While we do see drunkeness as a sin we do not see any sin at all in having a glass of wine with dinner on occasion.... they would. And, we would probably never agree on making movie viewing choices based on ratings alone (rememer the Passion of the Christ is rated R).

Bitterness would only occur if we stayed and were continually told we weren't meeting some kind of man made standard to say whether or not we are worthy to serve God where He has called us.

 

[Plan 9]

Choir members have to sign contracts??!!! There are many churches which would be thrilled to have dedicated members like yourselves and are not legalistic.
This isn't the right church for you.

 

[JPPT1974]

Pray and leave it all in God's hands because he will help you and your family find a church that is right for you. It may take awhile because when my family and I moved here to Seymour Tennessee it took us a long, long, time to find one and God placed us and he will place you and your family where he wants you all to be.

 

[Plan 9]

Yes, don't give up! God will direct you to the right church for you and your family. Sometimes it does take time, as JPPT points out, but the right church is well worth the search.

 

[BBAS 64]

Well... after our search of over a year I had thought we'd finally found a church with a good kids program and lots of opportunity for us to get involved. Ds has been going Sun mornings and Wed nights and dh and I have been helping Wed nights, dh did clown ministry for the childrens church this past Sunday (he was a hit with all) and had been asked back on a once a month basis (plus extra for special events) and we had made plans to go on a mission trip in June to an Indian reservation where we were going to do some clowning as part of a VBS program. We were really excited about everything and just last night I sent out a family update email to all our friends and family telling them about all that was going on...

THEN....

Tonight at Awanas dh was told by one of the leaders that he couldn't continue helping with Awanas because he smokes. Even though dh is trying to quit... and even though there are other Awanas helpers who smoke (but have agreed to not smoke on church property). I was very hurt for dh. I know dh's heart for God, his faith and love for the Lord. I know dh's heart for children. I know the man dh is. I guess we're just new and they just don't know who dh is and see his outward faults and not his heart. We each talked to our Moms... and they both pretty much said we may need to move on. We were told by the childrens director that we may want to try the Baptist church across town... apparently when they got this new younger pastor who is for total abstenance of smoking and drinking they lost several members who went over to the other where they are more "liberal" and allow smoking and a glass of wine with a meal. We found it interesting that to be in the choir at church you have to sign a contract to not drink, smoke, see R rated movies or watch questionable TV shows. So, I wondered if that meant that the choir members aren't allowed to go see movies like the Passion of the Christ, Schindlers List or the Patriot (Mel Gibson)? And if their kids are allowed to watch movies like
Brother Bear, that while rated G is full of New Age thought? I agree that there are movies and television we should maybe avoid... but I don't know that we can judge them soley based on ratings.

Anyways.... please pray for our hearts... mine especially, I'm afraid that my hurt may turn into bitterness (I have been praying about this all evening though). Pray that we would be able to know if God wants us to move on or to stay. We want His guidence in what to do.

Good Day, Onederwoman

I have been there and to some extent still am, I will be praying for you!



Bill

 

[OnederWoman]

Thanks guys... I'm glad to see so many supportive responces this morning. I was telling my Mom how tired I am of this seemiling neverending hunt for a church here. I know God has a place for us somewhere and that a year isn't really all that long, but I tend to get impatient at times. I'm not sure what exactly we'll do yet, though more than likely it will be to move on. Just praying a lot right now.

 

[eldermike]

You may not like this, It's not meant to offend you in any way.

You might be leaving the right church for the wrong reason. God moves us to places and circumstances that creates growth in us.

You may feel hurt by what that Elder said. But think about this some more. Leadership has high standards, not set by men, but by God. When Paul sent Timothy out, He was ready!. He told Timothy to choose leaders and gave Him standards to go by. Today's church (in way to many cases) is all about our feelings, and this is wrong.

If God sent you to an Elder that told you to change something, change it, and then see if He's wrong. If He's wrong then leave. Seek God in all things. Read 1'st and 2'nd Timothy and evaluate this Christian leaders statements from God's perspective.

Please don't seek justification from us, seek God.

Eldermike

 

[ChrisB]

This sounds most unbiblical to me. I don't think I could stand the pressure and certainly wouldn't sign anythig like that! Just a few quotes that seem relevant...............

Matthew 11
30For my yoke is easy and my burden is light."

Luke 11

46Jesus replied, "And you experts in the law, woe to you, because you load people down with burdens they can hardly carry, and you yourselves will not lift one finger to help them.

Galatians 5

1It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery.

 

[eldermike]

We are not ministry units of one. God gifted us to be part of something, not all of it. We have to agree on some standards (like the requirments for leadership, right from the bible).

The slavery of the law is misunderstood and used as a justification to become "all we want to be" in God's kingdom.

Asking a person gifted in Childrens ministry to stop smoking is not slavery.

Asking people who lead others into worship to pray for each other and enter into a covenant agreement with each other is not slavery.

 

[EdmundBlackadderTheThird]

Asking a person not to watch movies on their own time based on a secular rating system is ignorance.

Asking someone not to smoke, when it is not a sin, is legalism.

I can agree though that asking them not to smoke in front of the children they work with is more than accpetable, but asking them not to at all is a little out there. Christ himself drank wine and created wine, asking them not to drink is contradictory to the scripture, asking them not to be drunk would be much more in line. I see what you are saying eldermike but I cannot agree, this church is trying to control it's members with the scripture when we are to willingly submit to the authority of the scripture, and they are asking some things that are not even scriptural. The things they are asking are not things they should be asking their members or even their leaders. They go well beyond the scritural requirements for deacons and elders and that is just for the choir! I think OnederWoman is making the right decision leaving this church and pharisical (my new word) attitude they are enforcing.

 

[eldermike]

All I am suggesting, if you read my first post again is to seek God, not me, you or anyone on this issue.

 

[EdmundBlackadderTheThird]

I agree that God hould be sought, be the counsel of other Christians is valuable as well. I am sorry if I offended, it was not my intention.

 

[eldermike]

I am not offended, this is a good discussion actually.

The counsel of other Christians is a good thing. But, the idea is to seek counsel, not agreement with your feelings.

 

[EdmundBlackadderTheThird]

The counsel of other Christians is a good thing. But, the idea is to seek counsel, not agreement with your feelings.

Now that I completely agree with, council does not mean approval! I happen to approve of her decision in this case, but obviously council should be sought and taken into account whether or not you agree with it. Great point!

 

[ufonium2]

It's a church, it's not Dr. Phil. Sure, smoking is bad for you, and it would be good if nobody did it. Cholesterol is also bad for you, do they let you eat red meat?

Drunkeness is wrong, but so is gluttony. If you use total abstinence from alcohol to prevent drunkeness, shouldn't you abstain from food to prevent gluttony?

We are all sinners, we are all unworthy, and signing a pledge not to watch certain movies or put certain chemicals into our bodies doesn't make us somehow more worthy to enter God's house. It's a Pharisee mentality to think that it does.

Sorry, I have zero tolerance for churches like this.

 

[OnederWoman]

We are not ministry units of one. God gifted us to be part of something, not all of it. We have to agree on some standards (like the requirments for leadership, right from the bible).

The slavery of the law is misunderstood and used as a justification to become "all we want to be" in God's kingdom.

Asking a person gifted in Childrens ministry to stop smoking is not slavery.

Asking people who lead others into worship to pray for each other and enter into a covenant agreement with each other is not slavery.

Titus 1:6An elder must be blameless, the husband of but one wife, a man whose children believe and are not open to the charge of being wild and disobedient. 7Since an overseer[2] is entrusted with God's work, he must be blameless--not overbearing, not quick-tempered, not given to drunkenness, not violent, not pursuing dishonest gain. 8Rather he must be hospitable, one who loves what is good, who is self-controlled, upright, holy and disciplined. 9He must hold firmly to the trustworthy message as it has been taught, so that he can encourage others by sound doctrine and refute those who oppose it.

Not that my dh want to be an Elder, but he pretty much fits into the requirments... none of which mention smoking. And, it doesn't say you can not drink wine, it says you can't be given to drunkeness.... which he's not. We do not agree with prohibition of alcohol.

We have no problem with them preferreing that dh quit smoking... he is actually in the process of quiting and has already cut back to half of what he was smoking. And... not just that... they admit that there are other helpers who are smoking that they haven't asked to step down, because these smokers hide their smoking by not smoking on church property. My dh refuses to hide who he is or lie about who he is.... faults and all.

It's not at all that we think that we shouldn't hold ourselves to a high standard as Christians... but there is a difference between having standards and being oppressed by legalism (see back at my argument about what movies we should or should not see). We're not going to change our opinion that having a glass of wine with dinner is ok (or drinking any alcoholic beverage for that matter if it's because you enjoy the taste and aren't looking to become drunk)... and we won't hide or lie about that either. Even when dh does finally succeed in his efforts to quit smoking. Even if dh didn't want to quit smoking though I believe God would still be blessing us as he always has and God would still use us for His glory.

And no... I'm not looking here for anyones approval... I was interested though in what the reponces would be here. We are seeking counsel from our most trusted Christian friends, including out Elders from our church back in our home town (where we attended from 1991 to 2002).

 

[OnederWoman]

I can agree though that asking them not to smoke in front of the children they work with is more than accpetable, but asking them not to at all is a little out there.

Just so everyone knows... dh was smoking outside away from all the children and youth, away from the entrances. He does not want to be a bad influence on children, but again he will not hide himself or lie about who he is.

 

[EdmundBlackadderTheThird]

Just so everyone knows... dh was smoking outside away from all the children and youth, away from the entrances. He does not want to be a bad influence on children, but again he will not hide himself or lie about who he is.

Just to make this clear, I do smoke, and am a youth leader. My youth group knows I smoke and to be honest they, the youth, are the ones pressuring me to quit the most out of anyone around me. Since I work with the older youth I don't hide it, I don't light up a smoke right in front of them but I do smoke and they know it. They have been to my house (I smoke outside). I hope I didn't imply that your husband was a bad influence, if he is then I am as well!