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Welfare recipeints to get drug testing!

LilAngelHeart

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Originally posted by lisa03wilson
are you talking about America? because I make much less than 6.50. I'm pretty sure min. wage is 5.25. That's what I was hired at two years ago atleast. If it's higher than that, it isn't by much.

Yes, that's here in America. LOL! At least I thought minumum wage was $6.50. LOL! Yeah 2 years ago it was $5.25, I remember that. But I thought for sure it went up to $6.50! I could be wrong though. LOL! Sorry :D


Skye Leigh
 
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Brimshack

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I'm curious as to why so much of this discussion has completely bypassed the Fourth Amendment? That is the legal principle that precludes unreasonable searches and seizures, not some folksy sense of what's fair and what isn't. Fundamental rights under the constitution are not to be bargained away, withheld from the ppor, or generally dismissed at the first plausible rationale. Warrants are an exception, as are cases of probable cause. I also understand the argument that public safety requires testing of at least some professions, and see this as a reasonable exception. To suggest that common activities such as driving a car or having children are sufficient grounds for a test, however, effectively makes the exception into the rule and thus deprives all people of their fourth amendment rights to be secure in their person.

Even the reasoning by which such exceptions as testing where public safety is a factor have been allowed is not entirely kosher from a constitutional perspective. Allowing these things is an example of Judicial activism and loose constructionism by conservative justices, along with generalized search warrants, admissability of evidence gathered as a result of faulty search warrants, random roadblocks, etc. Do these sound like good ideas? OK, but that is precisely the sort of reasoning that everyone of those so-called 'strict constuctionsts' has denounced publically throughout their careers).

What I find most disturbing is the sense that this kind of search no longer requires a special justification at all, that those not wanting to submit would have to show why they shouldn't be, and hence that we no longer have a right to be secured against a search, that authorities no longer need to specifiy their grounds for doing it.

It does not even touch the issue to say that if you are supplying the paycheck through your taxes they should have to be subjected to the same tests you were as a federal. employee. It doesn't come close to the issue to say that it will help people get back on their feet (sorry Coastie). The idea that someone in a mundane job makes decisions affecting others doesn't justify the intrusion on one's person.

When someone must take a drug test this effectively reverses the burden of proof regarding the matter of what is in his system. The employee or welfare recipient is effectively forced to prove that he is not taking drugs, and to provide a potentially vast array of other information about his health in the process of doing so. What disturbs me here is the fact that many of the kinds of reasons being offered here are not even superficially relevant to the prospect that a fundamental right will be suspended by these actions.

Not only is the Fourth Amendment clearly dead; but obviously the Rhenquist Court has done a very effective job of burying it's carcass.
 
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Dewjunkie

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Brimshack,

I see your point, but in this case the 4th doesn't necessarily apply. It protects against illegal search and seizure. In other words, I couldn't come up to you and demand a drug test out of the blue. But, if they decide to test welfare applicants, as long as the applicant is notified before the test, then it is perfectly legal and is well within the constitution. It's the same as airport security checking your baggage. They advise you before hand, and thus it is legal. When applying for a job, the employer has to tell you about drug testing. If you don't like the stipulation of providing a sample, you have every right not to apply for the job. Just like if you don't want to work graveyard shifts you can not apply.

If a welfare applicant were to test postively, it would not subject them to criminal charges. It would simply hinder there right to gain access to taxpayer money that a lot of people work hard for. There would not be any burden of proof, because the proof would be in the sample. Anyone applying for welfare who truly needs it to support a family (IMO) shouldn't have trouble providing a sample. They'll do what they ahev to do to support their family.
 
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Brimshack

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Such is the current consensus, yes, but there are serious problems with it. Number one the Bill of Rights doesn't apply only to actions taken by government entities, and neither does it apply only to police actions. Check the wording:

"The right of people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

Note the subject of the Amendment is not a police action, but the right of people. The Amendmnet is thus not worded simply as a limitation on police power but an affirmative statement about the rights which people are presummed to have by the government, and which must therefore be protected. Any transgression of such a right by anyone would violate the Fourth Amendment. An employer who demands such a test as a condition of employment is violating the rights of a prospective job applicant, just as he would be doing if he forbade black employees. The formally voluntary nature of an action does not entail the absence of coercive factors. The prospect that one can go elsewhere doesn't make this any less of an infringement, particularly given the creeping trend towards greater and greater aplication of such tests to a wider array of prospective employees. This effectively renders the job market as a whole an arena in which one must accept an unreasonable search of his person to get a job. Congress has authority to prevent such infirngements under the commerce clause, and the duty to do so under the 4th and 14th amendments.

On Burden of Proof, your analysis applies only after the sample has been collected whereas my own comment applied to the need to provide that sample in the first place. S, I think my point stands. As to the idea that a person in need should do what it takes to help his family. This merely shifts the question to the rightness or wrongness of his own actiuons. It is not an argument about the rightness or wrongness of the tests.
 
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coastie

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Unfotunately, I have to concede. I can't see a flaw in your argument.

I tend to see things from a military point of view (i.e. most of my rights I have voluntarily given away.) I don't always take into account whether or not my superiors are breakign any rules or laws, I see things of this nature in black and white (meaning do it or pay the price).

Brimshack, you have raised a irrefutable argument from what I can see.

I do want it to be clear to those that I have argued with this already, that there is merit to this program and it does seem to benefit both sides, however, adhering to the 4 ammendment is paramount, no matter how sweet the deal sounds.
 
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Dewjunkie

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Brim, you have a good argument, but I still don't think there is any violation. The 4th pertains to possessions, and the person's right to house them without fear of government taking them from them. It doesn't pertain to qualifications for services.

Welfare applicants have to supply Social Security Numbers, bank statements and pay stubs with their applications. Is that a violation of their right to privacy? Probably, people do it, and don't complain about it, because those are the requirements. A drug test would be a requirement, just the same.

Doesn't a business owner have the right to try to keep drugs out of their workplace? People argue in favor of Affirmative Action even though it violates the business owner's right to hire the most qualified person. I think business owners and the government have the right to determine who gets their money. But, apparently, they don't have rights.
 
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Brimshack

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Hi Coastie. I will accept your surrender. Arrangements have been made to show you the finest in hospitality during your stay as a prisoner of war here in Heathonia. We have already sent ransom demands back to your home country, and I can assure you that they are quite reasonable. I am quite certain that your friends and family will purchase your freedom forthwith. In the meantime, the cook is awaiting instructions regarding your choice of supper. What is your pleasure; Duck or Pheasant?

Dew: On paragraph 1, in asserting that the Fourth Amendment applies to houses and possessions you ignore the presence of the word 'persons' in the Amendment. It also protects our right to be secure in our persons. (Since it protects persons, it applies to all cases where those persons are searched, regardless of the rationale for doing so - qualifications or otherwise). My person is at least as important as my property. Seriously, I wouldn't want to live in a society where my house and my car received more protection than my personal body. By the logic of this paragraph you are saying we have no right to protect our personal bodies from unreasonable search and seizure. That doesn't jibe with the wording, and the legal implications of that position are genuinely frightening.

Paragraph # 2: SS Numbers are given out all the time, and yes, it is a violation of people's right to privacy. The prospect that those numbers could be used as ageneral ID was one of the arguments against the system in the first place. The common abuse of that system is a classic case of a right eroding because it is not gaurded. Bank statements, pay stubs, etc. These are the resideu of public transactions. There is furthermore a sound link between the content of that information and the use to which it will be put, determining whether or not welfare is needed. The drug link is indirect at best, and it's application is not purely economic. If someone were taking an illegal drug which improves economic productivity in their vocation, I doubt that would be found acceptable. In any event, providing paperwork is not comparable to providing information about the contents of one's own body. That crosses a new threshold.

Paragraph # 3: Perhaps I can learn something here. Where are private business owners required by law to practice affirmative action? Or do you mean in order to secure government contracts? In any event, I doubt I would support the requirement, and so I don't feel I'm implicated in this charge of inconsistency. If you can convince me that that is an unwarranted infringement on the rights of a business owner, and that it actually is happening, then so be it, but that's just another infringement that must be fought. I don't see how it can be turned into an argument in favor of denying fourth amendment rights. Does a business owner have a right to keep his place free of drugs? Sure, within the limits of the rights of his customers and employees. he does not have the right to demand proof that no such drugs are present. If my employer has specific reason to think I am taking drugs and that it has affected my work in some way, then she can fire me. But she does not have any right to inspect my body on the off chance that I might have taken drugs, using a test for that matter that will not tell her whether I have been stoned at work, just whether or not I have taken drugs at all. Once again the interest appears to be extra-economic. It is a question of using economic leverage to force the bottom ranks of society to conform to norms which are at best marginally related to the transactions. I don't believe for one minute that the bulk of employers checking for drugs are doing so for economic reasons; they are doing so either for safety reasons (legitimate) or in order to 'help' so to speak, and in the process asserting a paternal authority over those employees which is completely unecessary from an economic point of view.
 
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coastie

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Originally posted by Brimshack
Hi Coastie. I will accept your surrender. Arrangements have been made to show you the finest in hospitality during your stay as a prisoner of war here in Heathonia. We have already sent ransom demands back to your home country, and I can assure you that they are quite reasonable. I am quite certain that your friends and family will purchase your freedom forthwith. In the meantime, the cook is awaiting instructions regarding your choice of supper. What is your pleasure; Duck or Pheasant?

Whoa.

I didn't really have a firm stance on the welfare issue. I was very swayable sicne I really didn't have enough information to make a fully informed decision. However, my stance on the Issue of legalizing drugs is firm.

Just wanted to let you know since I don't pride myself in conceding to anything unless given a good argument.

In conclusion... I don't eat duck! As a matter of fact, I belong to a duck rescue foundation!
 
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coastie

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About 4 years ago I got invovled in a foundation that is restoring habitat and trying to re-establish the Harlequin duck population in the US.

After working with them for so long, I just can't make myself eat duck anymore. :)
 
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Brimshack

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Well we in the Heathonian internet army do not discriminate between neutrals and hostiles - free fire zone and all that. As to the food, it's academic, your family has paid the ransom, so we're sending by grey-hound back to the Pacific rim. The cook has packed a couple balony sandwitches for the trip, and your wife said she'd throw a frozen pizza in the oven. Sausage or Pepperonni?
 
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coastie

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You talked to my wife!?

I doubt my family paid the ransom... you're just afraid of me teaching your guards about God because it will bring the seemingly rational materialist nation to it's knees.

I swore an oath wreak as much havoc with the enemy, while imprisoned, as I can, so don't expect good behavior even though you are sending me back....

And NEVER talk to my wife again!

(but between you and me... tell her pepperoni)
 
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Dewjunkie

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Brim,

Again, good points. (Always nice to debate with someone that can come back with more than "oh yeah?".)

But, The right to "your person" again refers to property. You can wear a Rolex without being subject to that Rolex being taken from you by a government official. It does not pertain to the government's right to establish regulations where public money is concerned. I doubt seriously the forefathers had protecting one's chemical content safe in mind when they scribed the Bill of Rights. Someone applying for Social Security Disability money (a process I am all too familiar with as my wife is a quadripelegic) has to submit every bit of medical information about themselves. Including what is inside their body. It's not a violation of rights, it's a requirement established to ensure someone is truly disabled. And people do it because they need the money. I agree that if the drug test were going to be used as a irrefutable disqualifying factor, then it would be wrong. But if it is used to send warning signals for a possible abuse of public welfare, then the government has a right to protect it's interests.

My referrences to SSN's were simply to illustrate that those are instances that not many seem to complain about losing their rights. Just an observation that people seem o.k. with giving up rights, as long as it doesn't infringe on their party time.

I'll retract my AA argument and save it for another time, I could get too involved with that.

My opinion is that the government should have every right to try to keep public funds out of the hands of drug users. Enough of our tax dollars get wasted already.
 
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Brimshack

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Alright Coastie, it's bad enough you carved fish signs on all the bathroom walls, and somehow left a Copy of Gideon's Bible under the Non-pulpit used by the head anti-priest; but were the Chick tracts in the alter of non-sacredness absolutely necessary? We've returned the ransom, and an equal portion of money in the hopes that your wife will take you back again, sooner rather than later.

…Oh, and I told her Sausage. :p
 
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Brimshack

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Oh yeah Dew !!!

Alright you're giving me a run for my money, but I'm still not convinced. I see three key problems with your last argument:

1) You claim that the word 'persons' refers to articles on one's person without referring to one's body itself is the key empirical question here. I just don't buy it; at the very least it is an awfully metaphorical interpretation of the actual text. To begin with note that the same word is used both in the opening sentence describing the things to be kept secure and in the final sentence describing the objects to be seized. In the latter 'persons' is clearly distinguished from 'things', and even in the former 'effects' stands in the same list alongside 'persons'. In other words, the sort of objects which you regard as being the referents of 'persons' are mentioned using other terms placed alongside this word. By this logic, the term 'persons' would be a redundancy, and such constructions are not to be favored when a direct literal interpretation of the term in question would give it a separate meaning. If any thing, personal effects are protected by virtue of being on one's person, so even the prospect that the objects might be intended in the use of this word does not exclude the prospect that it also refers to one's body.

Additionally: Consider the following passages:

"The protection garunteed by the Amendments is much broader in scope. The makers of our Constitution undertook to secure conditions favorable to the pursuit of happiness. …They sought to protect Americans in their beliefs, their thoughts, their emotions, and their sensations. They conferred, as against the government, the right to be let alone - the most comprehensive of rights and the right most valued by civilized men. To protect that right, every unjustifyable intrusion by the government upon the privacy of the individual, whatever the means employed, must be deemed a violation of the Fourth Amendment.'

Justice Holmes, dissenting in Olmstead v. United States. This was a case in which the court declined to apply the fourth amendment to wire taps on public phones. I mention it because the argument is a good one, not because it is actual case law, but of course the court reversed Olmstead in Katz:

"The Fourth Amendment protects people, not places."

Stewart in Katz v. United States.

Here the court is responding to a claim that the fourth amendment protects private places, but that indivisuals are not entitled to privacy when using public phones. The court denies the argument by specifically asserting that it is the people themselves that are protected in the fourth amendment. This same logic can be applied to your own claim that it is the objects owned by a person that are protected and not their persons.

Even the decision, Terry v. Ohio, which makes stop and frisk procedures acceptable under a variety of conditions does not involve a claim that a persons body is unprotected by the fourth amendment; the court merely ruled that such procedures could be justified when there was reasonable grounds for suspicion. This is very different from the claim that there simply is no right to protect your own body from a search. Take this passage, for example:

"It must be recognized that whenever a police officer accosts an individual and restrains his freedom to walk away, he has seized that person. And it is nothing less than shear torture of the English language to suggest that a careful exploration of the outer surfaces of the person's clothing all over his or her body in an attempt to find weapons is not a search."

Warren, in Katz v. U.S.

Note the role that ones body plays in making the exploration of clothing a search. The clothing is protected because it is on the body of the person in question. I would also argue that it is equally torture of the English language that a search for the chemical contents of a person's body is not a search. This does not mean that there are no conditions under which such a search can be justified; it does mean that the justification must be weighed against the rights garunteed in the fourth amendment. By your appoach no such balance takes place because we have no right to protect our bodies from state scrutiny.

Going back to some of your own arguments, I would say that saying our forefathers didn't intend the fourth amendment to cover chemical analysis is a bit like saying they intend the first amendment to cover telephones, TV, or computers. Since they didn't have this technology then, our forefathers did not have the opportunity to comment on the subject. The question is whether or not the principles they laid out woud apply to these developments, and how.

Regarding the production of medical information for medical procedures or funds accruing on the basis of medical conditions, there is a sound link here between the payment and the nature of the actual information. The information is actually necessary to justify the payment, whereas in the case of drug testing, it's relevance to functions of welfare payments is flimsy at best.

The prospect that information could be used to deny someone welfare isn't the issue. This is ansering the argument as though the problem rested solely in the use of the information. The problem is, however, that the potential use of the information does not justify compelling a person to produce it in the first place. (And note, that if you disagree, and argue it in terms of on-balanced criteria, that is at least accepting the prospect that the fourth amendment right applies in the first place, which is what I'm after).

I agree with your observation about SS numbers.

Affirmative Action would be best argued in a different context. We shall meet again.

You know I had two other arguments, but this rant is already perilously close to violating the 8th amendment, so I think I'll just save them.
 
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Dewjunkie

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Ahhh, the horse still has a pulse.....

Brim, all you're after is my concession that the 4th applies? Hmmm....what fun would that be?

Again, you have great points, and yes, it is a tangled web we weave when trying to decide what a roomful of men were "meaning" to say over 200 years ago. However, the one major flaw I personally see in the argument is that the test, in essence, would be voluntary. If you want welfare, give a sample. No one is forcing anyone to be on welfare. Welfare isn't a right, it's a priviledge, a service of the government. the government should be allowed to run it accordingly. And, welfare can be taken away if someone is convicted of a drug crime (or any other serious felony). If the government sees a trend in welfare recipients being convicted of drug crimes, then it would stand to reason that they have an obligation to tax payers to try to curb the dilemma.

If a person feels a right has been violated by having to provide a sample, they can always lean back on the right to go find a job.

As far as the police referrence; a sworn Peace Officer has a right (duty) to suspend a person's 4th Amendment right if he/she has probable cause to believe laws are being violated. Again, this comparison is moot, as no one is forcing the person to apply for welfare. But, if the regulation is in place, and the applicant knows about it, then it is legal. If an applicant got all the way through the application process, and then was told "to get your first check you have to provide a sample" and were not forewarned, then yes, I believe that would be wrong. But, if they know ahead of time that in order to get this service that they are requesting they have to provide a sample, then it cannot be a violation, IMO.

/me looks forward to the AA debate (cracking knuckles)
 
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Brimshack

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A dying horse? New Dew your position is that far gone yet, is it? (insert smart-alec smiley here) OK, the next time I post something that long just randomly delete half of my statements and let the resulting incoherence be my punishment for having no life. This time my response will be more reasonable:

Determining the intent is indeed difficult, but I think that I have shown the word does in fact refer to a person's body. I don't see a direct response to my claims about the meaning of the word. As for the police-stops issue; the point was simply that a fourth amendment right is inherent to the issue, even if is counterbalanced vby other factors. You have responded by telling me that other factors counter-balance. But the point is that a fourth amendment right is implicated in searches of a person's body. before you were denying the implication altogether.

As for the voluntary nature of the transaction, this ignores the potentially coercive nature of decisions about getting a living. When the decision is starve or comply, the decision is voluntary only in the most sbstract meaning of the word. Hence, people are not normally forced to give up their rights in order to enter the job market. (E.g. the range of free exercise cases involving sunday closure laws and Seventh Day Adventists. Even Scalia said that balancing test should apply in such cases, though he deceptively finessed the Native American Church issue. The bottom line is that an employer shouldn't have the authority to require that employees give up a fundamental right in the absence of clear safety concerns. Neither should the government. And such measures certainly should not be applied only to the bottom ranks of the American economy.

As for the 'get a job' rationale, it is my understanding that welfare is increasingly administered so as to force that issue anyway, but the whole rationale for welfare is that some people simply cannot get jobs, at least for a substantial periods of time. If you're are arguing that no such circumstances ever occur, then that is actually an argument against the existence of welfare programs in themselves. To use this as a rationale for denying a right to welfare recipients suggests that perhaps the point here is really to punish beneficiaries of an unpopular program by making them second class citizens (i.e. those with fewer rights than the rest of us).
 
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Dewjunkie

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Brim,

My "dying horse" referrence was only a sarcastic observation that we seem to be going in circles and have lost interest of everyone except you and I. I was not referring to the length of your posts.

I work in law enforcement, and am subject to drug testing. I don't think of it as a violation of my rights, but rather a requirement of the profession I choose. I make a very decent living, and in no way feel as though I am giving up any of my fundamental rights to do so. I believe that because the federal government and the tax payers pay me to do a job, they have the right to know that I am not using their money for illegal practices. Professional sports have random drug testing, I don't think any professional atheletes fit into the lower class level of society (financially, at least). To say that drug testing as a requirement to receive public funds singles out only the poor, well, you would be correct, only because you can't qualify for welfare if you are not. But drug testing is not limited to the lower earning ranks of society.

I understand that there are people unable to make an adequate living, and a lot of that comes down to personal choices. The government of course cannot control one's choice to be a burden on society, but it should be able to try to make it more difficult for people to abuse the system.

I have been to several "third world" countries, and agree wholeheartedly that welfare is a good system in principle. Unfortunately, it has been long taken advantage of, and because it has, it now carries a negative aura. I like that some states have establish child benefit limits to curb excess pregnancy, I like that some states have implimented limits on how long one can receive welfare, and I would like to see as many other restrictions put on it as possible to curb misuse. Again, because welfare is a priviledge, not a rght, I feel that people should have to abide by whatever guidelines the government decides to establish.
 
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Brimshack

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Actually, I thought the dying horse reference was a playful dig at my actual position and so I responded in kind. I myself found the length of my previous post objectionable. The comments were not related.

I have argued all along that reasonable concerns about safety are sufficient to overbalance the right in question. Your work in police work could potentially qualify for this sort of exception as would any athletes involved (the theory bein that to enable athletes to compete clean one must prevent drugs from spoiling the athletic market). In each case there is a tangeable link between the need for testing and the nature of the employment. (The rationale for testing you is certainly not an effeort to see yhow you spend public monies; it is to make sure that you aren't stoned yourself when you chase me down U.S. 89 because you think my car has ilegally changed shape on a public highway.

The remainder of your post appears to be an argument that welfare is good but abused, and so disincentives to continue that abuse are a good thing. Fair enough, but not at the expense of a basic right. I don't see the grounds for saying this will help further the interests of public safety. The rationale for setting the 4th amendment aside in this instance is thus weaker than for the examples most commonly cited (and certainly for those cited in this thread), and thus represents a further weakening of everyone's Fourth Amendment rights.
 
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