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Hahahaha....ok Hammster.
Got any thoughts on this?
"If I had not done among them the works which none other man did, they had not had sin..." Jn.15:24
To me, Jesus is saying people are responsible for what they know to be true and disbelieving under that circumstance is sin. It seems Jesus expected unbelievers to react differently to what He did among them.
Except people were unaware that Jesus would suffer and be killed. Put that together with the miracles and teachings they witnessed and there goes your theory.
Question for you cygnusx1:
"If I had not done among them the works which none other man did, they had not had sin..." Jn.15:24
What do you think Jesus meant?
The issue is He did the miracles so they would believe, as many did. Do you think the unbelievers He's referring to needed the indwelling of the Holy Spirit to believe in Him?Hammster said,
Sounds about right. What's the issue?
The issue is He did the miracles so they would believe, as many did. Do you think the unbelievers He's referring to needed the indwelling of the Holy Spirit to believe in Him?
I think what He did in their presence is good reason for that. When Jesus was executed, the Apostles hid.cgnusx1 said,
Not really even after Jesus died men and women in the face of extreme persecution followed Christ , a miracle .
Maybe He performed miracles for the fun of it.Hammster said,
It doesn't say that He did the miracles so that they would believe.
Maybe He performed miracles for the fun of it.
"Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake." Jn.14:11
I think what He did in their presence is good reason for that. When Jesus was executed, the Apostles hid.
Then why was it sin for them not to believe as He was doing miracles among them?Hamster said,
It still doesn't say that He did miracles so that they would believe.
Then why was it sin for them not to believe as He was doing miracles among them?
Apparently, the Apostles faith was the result of what they were seeing (ie: Hey, did you see the former blind man...lets hang out with Jesus....whoops, Jesus is dead now....gotta fly), not the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.cygnusx1 said,
exactly , who wants to die ?
Matt 16:24
Then Jesus said to his disciples, "Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me.
Then why was it sin for them not to believe as He was doing miracles among them?
Just so I'm clear on how you think...they should have believed, but needed some influence other than miracles being performed to believe? Is this correct?Hammster said,
They should have believed Him because of what He said. Since they rejected that, they had no excuse because He backed up what He said with miracles.
Apparently, the Apostles faith was the result of what they were seeing (ie: Hey, did you see the former blind man...lets hang out with Jesus....whoops, Jesus is dead now....gotta fly), not the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.
Hey! That's how He picked them!!! Thanks bro.cygnusx1 said,
how true that is of 'believers' !
and only the elect remnant remained.
Just so I'm clear on how you think...they should have believed, but needed some influence other than miracles being performed to believe? Is this correct?
They weren't born again until the Spirit indwelt them. I'm only mentioning this because it has been said (by Calvinists) that unregenerated man doesn't want anything to do with God and it seems they did.Hammster said,
They needed more than influence. They needed to be born again.
Wrong.They weren't born again until the Spirit indwelt them.
Since your first premise is wrong, your conclusion was sure to follow.I'm only mentioning this because it has been said (by Calvinists) that unregenerated man doesn't want anything to do with God and it seems they did.
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