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That's ok. My post wasn't for you either.Arcoe said,
Actually this wasn't meant for you. It's for those who believe God's counsel can't be thwarted by man.
So when God reproves people, it's because He wants them to be saved, isn't it?
So God reproves people because He wants them to repent because God hates sin and wants most sinners not to repent and burn, right?Hammster said,
He wants them to repent God hates sin.
So God reproves people because He wants them to repent because God hates sin and wants most sinners not to repent and burn, right?
My view was in the form of a question. You said, "He wants them to repent God hates sin." So, God wants people to repent because He doesn't want them to be sinful?Hammster said,
You have a really messed up view. That's very wrong. Where are you getting this?
My view was in the form of a question. You said, "He wants them to repent God hates sin." So, God wants people to repent because He doesn't want them to be sinful?
So God reproves people because He doesn't want them to be sinful, then withholds regeneration from them so that they remain sinful?Hammster said,
Yes.
Ok Arcoe. As long as you don't believe it is these same works that help justify your standing with Christ. These works only prove you are of the faith.
Ummm....Maybe because that vine represents the Nation of Israel and not the True Israel, ie. Jesus Christ. Didn't Steven say before they stoned him in Acts 7:51, "you stiff necked people, 'uncircumcised in heart and ears, as your Father's did, so do you."... Maybe you should stick with after PENTECOST and stick with Jesus Christ as the "True Vine".
Yes. The Holy Spirit witnesses to our spirit and moves us to act in love. Love is a fruit of the Spirit, is it not? Or do you assume it is a fruit of your spirit? ...See also my response to your very 1st question above.
Seriously Arcoe, after all we've discussed and you throw me straw mixed with red herring.
Because the Church includes both wheat and tares. In Mt 7:22 there will be some who say Lord, Lord, did we not do this and did we not do that,.... But you see, they relied on the false doctrine of relying on their own works. The Father's will is that everyone believe in the works of the Son. It's about having faith in the Son's righteousness, not ours. Rather than say, 'nothing in my hands I bring, only to the cross I cling', they boasted about all the works they were doing. The Lord ended up saying, "... depart from me, you workers of lawlessness."
It's no different than the analogy of the wood, hay, and stubble being burnt off.
So God reproves people because He doesn't want them to be sinful, then withholds regeneration from them so that they remain sinful?
Why are you accusing me of blaming God? My point is, you believe God reproves because He doesn't want people to be sinful, while simultaneously believing He withholds grace so people remain sinful. You seem unable to explain this paradox.Hammster said,
If you want to blame God, go ahead. I am not going to do that.
What I will do, though, is praise God that He's merciful to some and grants them repentance.
God hates sin. God calls people to repent. People, because of their sinful natures, are unwilling (not unable (you seem to keep missing this part)) to do so. God would be perfectly just in leaving people in this state. He does, however, choose to save some. He gives them new natures that are willing to repent.Why are you accusing me of blaming God? My point is, you believe God reproves because He doesn't want people to be sinful, while simultaneously believing He withholds grace so people remain sinful. You seem unable to explain this paradox.
Ooh. An argument from emotion. Sweet. Those are sure signs of desperation.By the way, I looked at your pic of the two kids by the window. Are those your children? Whoever they belong to, can you imagine their father telling them to do something they couldn't do and then punishing them for not doing it. This is your view of God.
Why are you accusing me of blaming God? My point is, you believe God reproves because He doesn't want people to be sinful, while simultaneously believing He withholds grace so people remain sinful. You seem unable to explain this paradox.
You have the exact same paradox - unless you are a universalist. You aren't one are you?
I honestly don't think that they see this as a paradox. They have put so much stock in free will that either a changed heart doesn't really mean a changed person (which means they can turn away from God at any time and forfeit salvation); or God is impotent to change a heart without sovereign man's approval.
They won't admit that a changed heart is a new creation that wants to love God, and that change comes from God Himself. And if He did so without man's permission, they would still love God. For some reason, if God does it without man's permission, He is either making robots, or is a tyrant for not doing the same with everyone.
So God reproves people because He doesn't want them to be sinful, then withholds regeneration from them so that they remain sinful?
This is nothing more than doublespeak...unwilling for unable. You believe man has no ability of himself to come to God, which means he is unable, not unwilling. You then avoid your belief by using the term unwilling, which means able, but not willing.Hammster said,
God hates sin. God calls people to repent. People, because of their sinful natures, are unwilling (not unable (you seem to keep missing this part)) to do so. God would be perfectly just in leaving people in this state. He does, however, choose to save some. He gives them new natures that are willing to repent.
Common sense is hardly desperation. The next time you tell your kids to do something they can't do, punish them. Be as foolish as your view of God is.Hammster said,
Ooh. An argument from emotion. Sweet. Those are sure signs of desperation.
Where did you get the unscriptural idea that when God changes peoples hearts, their old nature is completely gone?...or the unscriptural idea that once people are released from bondage, they can no longer return?...or the unscriptural idea that when God reproves sinners for the purpose of repentance, the repentant sinners are soverigns?hammster said,
I honestly don't think that they see this as a paradox. They have put so much stock in free will that either a changed heart doesn't really mean a changed person (which means they can turn away from God at any time and forfeit salvation); or God is impotent to change a heart without sovereign man's approval.
I never even hinted that God doesn't change hearts.Hammster said,
They won't admit that a changed heart is a new creation that wants to love God, and that change comes from God Himself.
Uh, no Hammster. People who have no free will have no ability to love. A real head kicker in Calvinism is that people do have free will, but only when it comes to evil. One of your buddies posted a cartoon with people worshipping the gold calf which said, "free will", but according to you, man has no free will...so guess what? Man is not accountable for anything...good or bad.Hammster said,
And if He did so without man's permission, they would still love God.
The God described in the Bible designed salvation with free will in mind and offers it to all.Hammster said,
For some reason, if God does it without man's permission, He is either making robots or is a tyrant for not doing the same with everyone.
I don't believe God saves every soul and in no case do I have the problem Calvinists have. With respect to salvation, the Bible is clear that God invites all and saves those who choose to come.Behe's Boy
You have the exact same paradox - unless you are a universalist. You aren't one are you?
I don't believe God saves every soul and in no case do I have the problem Calvinists have. With respect to salvation, the Bible is clear that God invites all and saves those who choose to come.
So this is how you want to debate? Telling me that I don't believe what I believe? I think it's best to just counter my arguments with an argument. Unless this is all you have. Then by all means.This is nothing more than doublespeak...unwilling for unable. You believe man has no ability of himself to come to God, which means he is unable, not unwilling. You then avoid your belief by using the term unwilling, which means able, but not willing.
Ah. This would explain your previous assertion that I lie about what I believe. You need me to be a list so that you can make this emotional argument. Sorry. Not gonna work.Common sense is hardly desperation. The next time you tell your kids to do something they can't do, punish them. Be as foolish as your view of God is.
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