weak faith

[GodSaves]

Just a question, not meant to spur a debate.

I don't see how the focus of this passage is about literal reading of the Bible and allegorical reading of the Bible. Personally, from my studies I have understood it to be talking about new Christians and Christians who have been for some time. Older Christians are not to look down on younger Christians because they need more rules and regulations and visa versa. You can also look in Colossians 2:16-23 where Paul talks more about what he is saying in Romans 14.

Personally I don't see Paul taking issue with calling a literal reading of Genesis or whatever part of the Bible as one who is weak. Neither with one who reads the Bible allegorical. To focus on this point, I think is missing the true message. The message is do not judge. That is the focus of Romans 14. I don't think the intention of this thread was to use scripture against those who read Genesis literally, at least I hope not. Because this passage is not about literal reading or allegorical reading, it is about judging one another.

You can tell me I am wrong with hopes of trying to correct me and point me towards God without judging me. I can do the same. The problem lies in how it is done, and with what words we choose to use.

I know many have read what I have wrote and have taken it to mean I am questioning ones faith. I would like to apologize to all of those, you too herev. I still think there are some serious problems or difficulties with believing in evolution, as far as how man/sin came about. In the future I will make sure I word correctly so you won't read it as I am questioning your faith, but rather your understanding.

In Christ

 

[ps139]

MOD HAT ON

Guys, please stop bickering and get back on topic or else we will need to close the thread.

MOD HAT OFF

 

[pressingon]

Romans 14 is one of my favorite passages!

However, it is interesting to note that the "weak faith" in Romans 14 is actually a reversal of how it's usually applied here. As the one with the "weak faith" is more like the Creationist (only vegetables and condemns the one with "strong faith") while the one with the "strong faith" is more like the TE (will eat meat [like accepting evolution], and looks down on the Creationists)

Only a TE could come up with this sort of nonsense.

Now you see my concern over either side identifying as "weak faith" or "strong faith"? Misunderstanding, and inflammatory remarks.....

I had hoped to head off this kind of thing through my previous posts.... without success, obviously.

 

[gluadys]

Just a question, not meant to spur a debate.

I don't see how the focus of this passage is about literal reading of the Bible and allegorical reading of the Bible. Personally, from my studies I have understood it to be talking about new Christians and Christians who have been for some time. Older Christians are not to look down on younger Christians because they need more rules and regulations and visa versa. You can also look in Colossians 2:16-23 where Paul talks more about what he is saying in Romans 14.

One of the neat things about the bible is that it is so full of passages which can have many interpretations. I like the idea that this passage may refer to younger vs older Christians. But I think it can do that and also refer to some of the other interpretations that have been mentioned as well.

Because this passage is not about literal reading or allegorical reading, it is about judging one another.

Amen. That is the central message, however one interprets "strong" and "weak". It is far less important to identify the "strong" and the "weak" than to take to heart this central message. Do not judge one another.
(When we really stop to think about it, probably we are all "strong" in some respects and "weak" in others.)

 

[GodSaves]

I thought I would add the Colossians 2:16-23
Colossians 2

16Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ. 18Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you for the prize. Such a person goes into great detail about what he has seen, and his unspiritual mind puffs him up with idle notions. 19He has lost connection with the Head, from whom the whole body, supported and held together by its ligaments and sinews, grows as God causes it to grow.
20Since you died with Christ to the basic principles of this world, why, as though you still belonged to it, do you submit to its rules: 21"Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!"? 22These are all destined to perish with use, because they are based on human commands and teachings. 23Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence.

 

[Dracil]

Now you see my concern over either side identifying as "weak faith" or "strong faith"? Misunderstanding, and inflammatory remarks.....

I had hoped to head off this kind of thing through my previous posts.... without success, obviously.

And this was why I said, so call it Type A faith and Type 1 faith. But of course, everyone (ok, of course not literally everyone, but it certainly seems close to it) just goes ahead and ignores it.

 

[TwinCrier]

TE's trust the plain truth in God's creation. Creationists dogmatically put their faith in their idol, the Bible, and on top of that do not understand science usually due to educational limitations or sometimes the need to lie for their interpretations.

Perfect example of what I posted about in #12. Summary: if only YEC's were as smart as me. Science is truth, bible is "allegories" and if you disagree, you're just stupid.

 

[adam149]

Does anyone else feel that this might be a misapplication?

The actual issue at hand was ceremonial meat eating, such as from pagan rituals and ceremonies. Should a Christian eat or not eat the meat of special ceremonies and special holidays? Paul is arguing that it was not a problem under the new covenant, when God lifted the ban on meat-eating. Paul likens this to those weaker in the faith than others. The weaker ones were those who did not eat the meat; problably the jewish christians still used to the ideas of Judaism and it's prohibition on meat. The Gentile christians, having been used to such meat, would have had no problem with it and more likely to have ridiculed the Jewish christians over their qualms.

In the passage, Paul is agreeing with the Gentile christians that there was no problem eating the meat while encouraging them not to mock their fellows in Christ who were not yet at that point in their faith to dismiss their traditions. Paul says that it's not a sin to eat it or not eat it and the Gentiles should encourage the Jews on their path as new christians.

The later passages (5-9) is concerned with what Paul terms "special days", which are probably the Jewish traditional days, such as the Passover, which the Jewish christians were probably still following where the Gentiles probably were not. Paul sees this as whether there can be more than one outward expression of the christian faith in conduct and social habit, and is trying get both sides to see that the other is not sinning by what they are doing. He is saying that the issue is whether both groups are convinced that Christ's claims are the important, defining feature of Christian faith and whether both sides are honoring the Lord in their practices.

THe rest of the chapter (10-23) is where Paul is concerned that one's liberty (the Gentiles and their eating of the meat) will cause a stumbling block for those weaker in the faith (aka, cause spiritual ruin to a brother or sister). Motivation is the key; no Christian fruit from non-Christian root (faith). Conduct not motivated from a desire to honor the Lord above all else is sin in Paul's eyes (see v. 22-23).

This passage is not commenting on one interpretation is stronger or weaker than another, as has been insinuated. Furthermore, Paul is not saying that we should change our beliefs to cator to the weaker in the faith, merely in Christ-like love and kindness recognize that they are not as far along on the path of Christian walking as those stronger in the faith are and should not be mocked for being unsure, but rather helped to mature in the faith, to diciple them along the road that they should reach that mature point.

Aside from being kind to one another as fellow brothers and sisters, with which I absolutely agree, there is little or no application to origins positions.

I have been insulted more than once on this forum from someone telling me I have weak faith because I am a TE. I have also seen my TE brothers and sisters look down their noses on the creationists here. Face it, we're just not very nice sometimes.
For my NT class, we are studying Romans for this week. I came across an interesting passage:
From Romans 14 (NIV)
1Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters. 2One man's faith allows him to eat everything, but another man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. 3The man who eats everything must not look down on him who does not, and the man who does not eat everything must not condemn the man who does, for God has accepted him. 4Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.
5One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. 6He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord. He who eats meat, eats to the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who abstains, does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God. 7For none of us lives to himself alone and none of us dies to himself alone. 8If we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord.
9For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living. 10You, then, why do you judge your brother? Or why do you look down on your brother? For we will all stand before God's judgment seat. 11It is written:
" 'As surely as I live,' says the Lord,
'every knee will bow before me;
every tongue will confess to God.' "[1] 12So then, each of us will give an account of himself to God.
13Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another.

We could learn a thing or two--but will we?
Peace
Tommy

 

[herev]

This passage is not commenting on one interpretation is stronger or weaker than another, as has been insinuated. Furthermore, Paul is not saying that we should change our beliefs to cator to the weaker in the faith, merely in Christ-like love and kindness recognize that they are not as far along on the path of Christian walking as those stronger in the faith are and should not be mocked for being unsure, but rather helped to mature in the faith, to diciple them along the road that they should reach that mature point.

Aside from being kind to one another as fellow brothers and sisters, with which I absolutely agree, there is little or no application to origins positions.

While I appreciate your exegetical work on the passage, what I have said throughout was concerning the proper treatement for one that you believe to have a weaker faith. My point had to do with verses 9-13, judging and looking down upon those who are your brothers and sisters in Christ. This IS the only relation to the argument, it should not be understood that I was suggesting that Paul was discussing origins theology.

 

[adam149]

While I appreciate your exegetical work on the passage,

Hey, what better practice for a guy preparing for seminary studies in apologetics/hermeneutics?

what I have said throughout was concerning the proper treatement for one that you believe to have a weaker faith. My point had to do with verses 9-13, judging and looking down upon those who are your brothers and sisters in Christ. This IS the only relation to the argument, it should not be understood that I was suggesting that Paul was discussing origins theology.

And my concern for posting was to set the passage in its proper and historical context, lest misunderstanding accumulate. Naturally, I agree with Paul, and you, in your comments regarding how each position treats the other (as you well know, my having addressed this in a different discussion).

My main concern was with addressing this comment you made:

Read the passage for yourself, those that held to strict interpretation were the ones that Paul referred to as weak in faith, although AS IT HAS ALREADY been pointed out, even Paul didn't mean it as an insult--

I interpreted this as a criticism of the "literalist" or "plain" view and was my primary target in refutation. I see now that your comment "strict interpretation" was not refering to plain interpretation in general, but to a strict interpretation of the OT on the part of those "weak" in faith.

In this case, I still feel that the comment is misapplied, since it was not a "strict" interpretation which they were having a problem with, since a strict interpretation would have them accepting Paul's position and God's withdrawing of the old covenant dietary restrictions. Rather, they were having a problem with the Judaic traditions and the Mosaic law. It was not a "strict" interpretation of this law, but a failure to see that in Christ, those aspects of the law were no longer necessary. Paul was exhorting both sides to be calm, but also exhorting the strong in faith to be patient as the weaker worked out these issues, and he also exhorted the stronger to help the weaker in doing this.

Hope this clarifies a little.

 

[Beowulf]

Weaker in faith or not as mature a christian?

We're all "under construction" at differing levels. I can't really say one person's faith is stronger or not but some are young in the faith and some are more matured. If we're more matured then when with the younger christian we need to exercise a little restraint if it can give the younger a distorted impression.

<shrugs>