We need to radically rethink what it means to be loving

[food4thought]

I hear a lot about how unloving Christians are when we say that certain acts and "lifestyles" are sinful. In response to this accusation, I point to the Lord Jesus:

13¶“But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut up the kingdom of heaven against men; for you neither go in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in.
14“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you devour widows’ houses, and for a pretense make long prayers. Therefore you will receive greater condemnation.
15¶“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel land and sea to win one proselyte, and when he is won, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves.
16¶“Woe to you, blind guides, who say, ‘Whoever swears by the temple, it is nothing; but whoever swears by the gold of the temple, he is obliged to perform it.’
17“Fools and blind! For which is greater, the gold or the temple that sanctifies the gold?
18“And, ‘Whoever swears by the altar, it is nothing; but whoever swears by the gift that is on it, he is obliged to perform it.’
19“Fools and blind! For which is greater, the gift or the altar that sanctifies the gift?
20“Therefore he who swears by the altar, swears by it and by all things on it.
21“He who swears by the temple, swears by it and by Him who dwells in it.
22“And he who swears by heaven, swears by the throne of God and by Him who sits on it.
23¶“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faith. These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone.
24“Blind guides, who strain out a gnat and swallow a camel!
25¶“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you cleanse the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of extortion and self-indulgence.
26“Blind Pharisee, first cleanse the inside of the cup and dish, that the outside of them may be clean also.
27¶“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs which indeed appear beautiful outwardly, but inside are full of dead men’s bones and all uncleanness.
28“Even so you also outwardly appear righteous to men, but inside you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness.
29¶“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! Because you build the tombs of the prophets and adorn the monuments of the righteous,
30“and say, ‘If we had lived in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.’
31¶“Therefore you are witnesses against yourselves that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets.
32“Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers’ guilt.
33“Serpents, brood of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell?
34“Therefore, indeed, I send you prophets, wise men, and scribes: some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from city to city,
35“that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar.
36“Assuredly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.
37¶“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!
38“See! Your house is left to you desolate;
39“for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the LORD!’ ”

I ask this very pointed question: did Jesus love the scribes and pharisees? Please offer Scripture to support your answer.

 

[GOD Shines Forth!]

I hear a lot about how unloving Christians are when we say that certain acts and "lifestyles" are sinful. In response to this accusation, I point to the Lord Jesus:

13¶“But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut up the kingdom of heaven against men; for you neither go in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in.
14“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you devour widows’ houses, and for a pretense make long prayers. Therefore you will receive greater condemnation.
15¶“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel land and sea to win one proselyte, and when he is won, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves.
16¶“Woe to you, blind guides, who say, ‘Whoever swears by the temple, it is nothing; but whoever swears by the gold of the temple, he is obliged to perform it.’
17“Fools and blind! For which is greater, the gold or the temple that sanctifies the gold?
18“And, ‘Whoever swears by the altar, it is nothing; but whoever swears by the gift that is on it, he is obliged to perform it.’
19“Fools and blind! For which is greater, the gift or the altar that sanctifies the gift?
20“Therefore he who swears by the altar, swears by it and by all things on it.
21“He who swears by the temple, swears by it and by Him who dwells in it.
22“And he who swears by heaven, swears by the throne of God and by Him who sits on it.
23¶“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faith. These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone.
24“Blind guides, who strain out a gnat and swallow a camel!
25¶“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you cleanse the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of extortion and self-indulgence.
26“Blind Pharisee, first cleanse the inside of the cup and dish, that the outside of them may be clean also.
27¶“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs which indeed appear beautiful outwardly, but inside are full of dead men’s bones and all uncleanness.
28“Even so you also outwardly appear righteous to men, but inside you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness.
29¶“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! Because you build the tombs of the prophets and adorn the monuments of the righteous,
30“and say, ‘If we had lived in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.’
31¶“Therefore you are witnesses against yourselves that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets.
32“Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers’ guilt.
33“Serpents, brood of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell?
34“Therefore, indeed, I send you prophets, wise men, and scribes: some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from city to city,
35“that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar.
36“Assuredly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.
37¶“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!
38“See! Your house is left to you desolate;
39“for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the LORD!’ ”

I ask this very pointed question: did Jesus love the scribes and pharisees? Please offer Scripture to support your answer.

"Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing."—Luke 13:34

Sounds like (true) love to me.

 

[food4thought]

"Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing."—Luke 13:34

Sounds like (true) love to me.

Yes! It seems obvious to me that God loves us enough to warn us of the consequences of our actions, and Jesus loves the Pharisees enough to make them aware of their sins, so that they would repent and be saved.

I will also note that the written word does not reveal His tone of voice as He said these things... I sincerely believe that He spoke from a broken heart, not shouting in anger. We need to be gentle and kind to all, yet we cannot fail to love people enough to speak truth to them.

 

[pescador]

I hear a lot about how unloving Christians are when we say that certain acts and "lifestyles" are sinful. In response to this accusation, I point to the Lord Jesus:

13¶“But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut up the kingdom of heaven against men; for you neither go in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in.
14“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you devour widows’ houses, and for a pretense make long prayers. Therefore you will receive greater condemnation.
15¶“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel land and sea to win one proselyte, and when he is won, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves.
16¶“Woe to you, blind guides, who say, ‘Whoever swears by the temple, it is nothing; but whoever swears by the gold of the temple, he is obliged to perform it.’
17“Fools and blind! For which is greater, the gold or the temple that sanctifies the gold?
18“And, ‘Whoever swears by the altar, it is nothing; but whoever swears by the gift that is on it, he is obliged to perform it.’
19“Fools and blind! For which is greater, the gift or the altar that sanctifies the gift?
20“Therefore he who swears by the altar, swears by it and by all things on it.
21“He who swears by the temple, swears by it and by Him who dwells in it.
22“And he who swears by heaven, swears by the throne of God and by Him who sits on it.
23¶“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faith. These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone.
24“Blind guides, who strain out a gnat and swallow a camel!
25¶“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you cleanse the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of extortion and self-indulgence.
26“Blind Pharisee, first cleanse the inside of the cup and dish, that the outside of them may be clean also.
27¶“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs which indeed appear beautiful outwardly, but inside are full of dead men’s bones and all uncleanness.
28“Even so you also outwardly appear righteous to men, but inside you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness.
29¶“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! Because you build the tombs of the prophets and adorn the monuments of the righteous,
30“and say, ‘If we had lived in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.’
31¶“Therefore you are witnesses against yourselves that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets.
32“Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers’ guilt.
33“Serpents, brood of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell?
34“Therefore, indeed, I send you prophets, wise men, and scribes: some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from city to city,
35“that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar.
36“Assuredly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.
37¶“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!
38“See! Your house is left to you desolate;
39“for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the LORD!’ ”

I ask this very pointed question: did Jesus love the scribes and pharisees? Please offer Scripture to support your answer.

John 3:16-17, "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.

I don't see where anyone, Pharisees, Sadducees, Romans, or anyone else, is excluded. => God loved, loves, and will love the world that He created. <=

 

[food4thought]

John 3:16-17, "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.

I don't see where anyone, Pharisees, Sadducees, Romans, or anyone else, is excluded. => God loved, loves, and will love the world that He created. <=

So what does Matthew 23 tell us about loving people?

 

[pescador]

So what does Matthew 23 tell us about loving people?

What?? Matthew 23 talks about the teachers of the law and Pharisees and their false teachings. (IMHO the same could be applied to false teachers of Christianity.)

Unfortunately your post shows a serious misunderstanding of God and His love for His creation.

"Love your neighbor as yourself" is a basic command in both Testaments (Leviticus, all the Gospels, Paul's epistles, and James' epistle). If you don't love others you're sinning against God.

 

[food4thought]

What?? Matthew 23 talks about the teachers of the law and Pharisees and their false teachings. (IMHO the same could be applied to false teachers of Christianity.)

Unfortunately your post shows a serious misunderstanding of God and His love for His creation.

"Love your neighbor as yourself" is a basic command in both Testaments (Leviticus, all the Gospels, Paul's epistles, and James' epistle). If you don't love others you're sinning against God.

I think you are misunderstanding God's love... was Jesus speaking from a foundation of love to the Scribes and Pharisees? Is speaking truth to someone an act of hatred?

 

[pescador]

I think you are misunderstanding God's love... was Jesus speaking from a foundation of love to the Scribes and Pharisees? Is speaking truth to someone an act of hatred?

Since you are single, i.e., not a parent, you don't have an understanding of how you can correct somebody's behavior and still love them at the same time.

Of course Jesus spoke from a foundation of love! (How could He speak from a different foundation?) He grieved that the Scribes and Pharisees didn't understand the truth of God's love. Matthew 23:37, “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing."

 

[food4thought]

Since you are single, i.e., not a parent, you don't have an understanding of how you can correct somebody's behavior and still love them at the same time.

I am not a father, true, but that does not mean I have no understanding of how to lovingly correct someone.

Of course Jesus spoke from a foundation of love! (How could He speak from a different foundation?) He grieved that the Scribes and Pharisees didn't understand the truth of God's love. Matthew 23:37, “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing."

I agree. So, did the rest of Matthew 23 reflect love as well? Should we, as Christians, emulate Jesus by lovingly, gently, but clearly speaking truth to those who are claiming to be followers of God while really only serving themselves, particularly when they use clever interpretations of one part of God's word to justify defying another?

 

[pescador]

I am not a father, true, but that does not mean I have no understanding of how to lovingly correct someone.



I agree. So, did the rest of Matthew 23 reflect love as well? Should we, as Christians, emulate Jesus by lovingly, gently, but clearly speaking truth to those who are claiming to be followers of God while really only serving themselves, particularly when they use clever interpretations of one part of God's word to justify defying another?

Yes, I agree.

 

[pescador]

I am not a father, true, but that does not mean I have no understanding of how to lovingly correct someone.



I agree. So, did the rest of Matthew 23 reflect love as well? Should we, as Christians, emulate Jesus by lovingly, gently, but clearly speaking truth to those who are claiming to be followers of God while really only serving themselves, particularly when they use clever interpretations of one part of God's word to justify defying another?

The immediate answer to this is yes, of course. However, Jesus was infallible in word, thought, and deed. We however are not. So we must be careful to speak the truth in love to the extent that we are capable.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

John 3:16-17, "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.

I don't see where anyone, Pharisees, Sadducees, Romans, or anyone else, is excluded. => God loved, loves, and will love the world that He created. <=

Except certain people are excluded, not from God's love, but from God's covenant and Church. Many Romans excluded themselves if they would not worship Jesus. Many Sadducees excluded themselves when they sought the death of Jesus and refused toe recognize him. Many Pharisees also.

You float dangerously close to a type of universalism which is ultimately the destruction of the Christian religion. There will be goats and sheep on the last day and Jesus will divide them. Christians historically have been divided from the rest of the population and have not been inclusive of everyone for everything they did.

 

[Soyeong]

I hear a lot about how unloving Christians are when we say that certain acts and "lifestyles" are sinful. In response to this accusation, I point to the Lord Jesus:

13¶“But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut up the kingdom of heaven against men; for you neither go in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in.
14“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you devour widows’ houses, and for a pretense make long prayers. Therefore you will receive greater condemnation.
15¶“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel land and sea to win one proselyte, and when he is won, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves.
16¶“Woe to you, blind guides, who say, ‘Whoever swears by the temple, it is nothing; but whoever swears by the gold of the temple, he is obliged to perform it.’
17“Fools and blind! For which is greater, the gold or the temple that sanctifies the gold?
18“And, ‘Whoever swears by the altar, it is nothing; but whoever swears by the gift that is on it, he is obliged to perform it.’
19“Fools and blind! For which is greater, the gift or the altar that sanctifies the gift?
20“Therefore he who swears by the altar, swears by it and by all things on it.
21“He who swears by the temple, swears by it and by Him who dwells in it.
22“And he who swears by heaven, swears by the throne of God and by Him who sits on it.
23¶“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faith. These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone.
24“Blind guides, who strain out a gnat and swallow a camel!
25¶“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you cleanse the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of extortion and self-indulgence.
26“Blind Pharisee, first cleanse the inside of the cup and dish, that the outside of them may be clean also.
27¶“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs which indeed appear beautiful outwardly, but inside are full of dead men’s bones and all uncleanness.
28“Even so you also outwardly appear righteous to men, but inside you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness.
29¶“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! Because you build the tombs of the prophets and adorn the monuments of the righteous,
30“and say, ‘If we had lived in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.’
31¶“Therefore you are witnesses against yourselves that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets.
32“Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers’ guilt.
33“Serpents, brood of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell?
34“Therefore, indeed, I send you prophets, wise men, and scribes: some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from city to city,
35“that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar.
36“Assuredly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.
37¶“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!
38“See! Your house is left to you desolate;
39“for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the LORD!’ ”

I ask this very pointed question: did Jesus love the scribes and pharisees? Please offer Scripture to support your answer.

Why should the God who created the universe care about what we do? The only way that we can do something that God would care enough about to get angry at us is if He loves us so much that every little thing that we do gets magnified in importance to Him. The reason why we correct someone needs to be rooted love, not annoyance. In Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that tithing was something that they ought to be doing while not neglecting weightier matters of the law of justice, mercy, and faith, so he was not opposing them, but rather he was calling them to a fuller obedience.

 

[pescador]

I hear a lot about how unloving Christians are when we say that certain acts and "lifestyles" are sinful. In response to this accusation, I point to the Lord Jesus:

13¶“But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut up the kingdom of heaven against men; for you neither go in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in.
14“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you devour widows’ houses, and for a pretense make long prayers. Therefore you will receive greater condemnation.
15¶“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel land and sea to win one proselyte, and when he is won, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves.
16¶“Woe to you, blind guides, who say, ‘Whoever swears by the temple, it is nothing; but whoever swears by the gold of the temple, he is obliged to perform it.’
17“Fools and blind! For which is greater, the gold or the temple that sanctifies the gold?
18“And, ‘Whoever swears by the altar, it is nothing; but whoever swears by the gift that is on it, he is obliged to perform it.’
19“Fools and blind! For which is greater, the gift or the altar that sanctifies the gift?
20“Therefore he who swears by the altar, swears by it and by all things on it.
21“He who swears by the temple, swears by it and by Him who dwells in it.
22“And he who swears by heaven, swears by the throne of God and by Him who sits on it.
23¶“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faith. These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone.
24“Blind guides, who strain out a gnat and swallow a camel!
25¶“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you cleanse the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of extortion and self-indulgence.
26“Blind Pharisee, first cleanse the inside of the cup and dish, that the outside of them may be clean also.
27¶“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs which indeed appear beautiful outwardly, but inside are full of dead men’s bones and all uncleanness.
28“Even so you also outwardly appear righteous to men, but inside you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness.
29¶“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! Because you build the tombs of the prophets and adorn the monuments of the righteous,
30“and say, ‘If we had lived in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.’
31¶“Therefore you are witnesses against yourselves that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets.
32“Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers’ guilt.
33“Serpents, brood of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell?
34“Therefore, indeed, I send you prophets, wise men, and scribes: some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from city to city,
35“that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar.
36“Assuredly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.
37¶“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!
38“See! Your house is left to you desolate;
39“for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the LORD!’ ”

I ask this very pointed question: did Jesus love the scribes and pharisees? Please offer Scripture to support your answer.

John 3:16, "For God so loved the world..." Since the Pharisees and scribes are of this world, the answer is obvious, plain, and simple: God loves them.

 

[food4thought]

The immediate answer to this is yes, of course. However, Jesus was infallible in word, thought, and deed. We however are not. So we must be careful to speak the truth in love to the extent that we are capable.

Yes, I agree. I will be the first to acknowledge that there are some debatable Scriptures and knowing which doctrines that arise from them are correct can be hard, but when the truth is clear we need to stand against the lies.

I will also be the first to admit that far too many fail to speak in love, compassion, and gentleness when defending the truth. I am particularly ashamed of how some have gotten downright evil in the way they have spoken and acted towards the LGBTQ community. They only hurt the cause of Christ... of course, some who defend the LGBTQ community have gotten pretty nasty also. I am sure the whole situation breaks God's heart.

 

[hedrick]

Jesus’ strong words and actions were always directed against leaders who abused their authority, not others.

 

[food4thought]

Jesus’ strong words and actions were always directed against leaders who abused their authority, not others.

I was going to mention that! Although I was going to say false teachers.

 

[food4thought]

I was thinking about what I said earlier about the written word, and how it does not convey tone of voice (or body language)... we need to be very careful about the words we choose on these forums.

I'm sure I have been guilty of this...