We live in the best of all possible worlds

[Bellicus]

Gottfried Leibniz said that we live in the best of all possible worlds, by this he in a strange way eliminated the problem of suffering and evil - Theodicy.

In any given moment, in any given present time, we have the best we can possibly have.

We can imagine we could have it better if we had this and that, and we can think that things would be better if this and that had been like this and that. But still, what we imagine we could have, is not what we have. What we imagine is not what is real. But what we have in any given moment is what is real. The future and the past is not something real. And what we imagine about the moment is not something real.

Even if we are lying wounded on the battle field, even if we are lying in the hospital, sick and waiting to die, even if we kiss a girl we are in love with, even if we eat our favorite food - no matter what we do, there can't be anything better then what we have in that given moment.

Until we die, there is always something better then to be dead.

 

[seeker777]

In any given moment, in any given present time, we have the best we can possibly have..

Not if your suffering horribly or having to go through horrific abuse.

 

[Bellicus]

Not if your suffering horribly or having to go through horrific abuse.

Even if you are taking your last breath of air, before you end up dead, you don't got anything better then what you got in that moment.

We can imagine better things, but our imagination is not real.

 

[Hammster]

I don't have to imagine the promise of my Lord Jesus Christ that Heaven is waiting for me. That is way better than the pralines and cream ice cream I am eating right now. It is better than my family (whom I love) and better than sex. Dying sucks, because it is not natural. But to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. Amen.

 

[Bellicus]

I don't have to imagine the promise of my Lord Jesus Christ that Heaven is waiting for me. That is way better than the pralines and cream ice cream I am eating right now. It is better than my family (whom I love) and better than sex. Dying sucks, because it is not natural. But to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. Amen.

Right, but we don't have heaven now. So this is the best we can have - now. This is not a world of absolute pain or absolute pleasure. There can always be better or worse things if we imagine so. But the truth is: What we imagine is not the truth. What the truth is, is what we have in any given moment. And for this there is always a reason to thank God, that we have something better then death.

There will be a time between life and death, and before death we have the best we can have, and after death - if we are following the Lord - we will both have the best we can have and the best we can imagine we could have had.

 

[Hammster]

I would say, then, that for the non-believers, this is the best it will get. And for the believers, this is the worst it will be.

 

[Bellicus]

I would say, then, that for the non-believers, this is the best it will get. And for the believers, this is the worst it will be.

The bible do talk about blessing people get here on earth, and these are for both believers and unbelievers. (God let it rain over both the righteous and the unrighteous). So it is not the worst it will be. The worst it will be will probably be when we have to face the Lord of Fear (death). So until then we always have the best possible moment we can have. There is both earthly blessings from God and spiritually blessings, and there can always be said things could be worse, so then the moments we have are always as good as they can be.

 

[MarkFiles]

Didn't God say that this creation was "perfect", as recorded in Genesis?

And if it were Perfect, wouldn't it be perfectly capable of recovering from fall?

 

[ebia]

Didn't God say that this creation was "perfect", as recorded in Genesis?

It doesn't say "perfect" but "very good".

 

[ebia]

Gottfried Leibniz said that we live in the best of all possible worlds, by this he in a strange way eliminated the problem of suffering and evil - Theodicy.

In any given moment, in any given present time, we have the best we can possibly have.

We can imagine we could have it better if we had this and that, and we can think that things would be better if this and that had been like this and that. But still, what we imagine we could have, is not what we have. What we imagine is not what is real. But what we have in any given moment is what is real. The future and the past is not something real. And what we imagine about the moment is not something real.

Even if we are lying wounded on the battle field, even if we are lying in the hospital, sick and waiting to die, even if we kiss a girl we are in love with, even if we eat our favorite food - no matter what we do, there can't be anything better then what we have in that given moment.

Until we die, there is always something better then to be dead.

It seems to me to render the word "possible" as meaningless. And who's to say that what we can imagine is not as relevant as what is? Just because we label one of those "reality". Who, in fact, is to say that there is only one reality?

Even if you buy the argument, calling it "the best of all possible worlds" is spin - it's equally "the worst of all possible worlds".

On the other hand your summary seems to have little to do with what Leibniz actually suggested.

 

[seeker777]

We can imagine better things, but our imagination is not real.

What about people who are able to remove themselves mentally from a painful situation, so that physically they are being abused, but mentally, they have literally removed themselves from the situation. This of course is taken place within the brain, within the imagination.



No?

 

[seeker777]

It is better than my family .

You boldly state that something ( heaven) that may not even exist, is better than something that does exist ( your family) and your family, which you no is real, you only have for a short period of time.

It seems that you are not living in the moment, rather you are living for the hope of a pleasant future.

 

[Bellicus]

Who, in fact, is to say that there is only one reality?

So you suggest there is several realities?

Even if you buy the argument, calling it "the best of all possible worlds" is spin - it's equally "the worst of all possible worlds".

You can call it whatever you want, but we got knowledge about the bad things in life, and we always know how bad things can be, this also make us know that whatever good things we have would be better then having it worse. And it is better to have it better then something worse, then having it worse then something better. So in that way we have it as good as we can have it, when we have what we have.

On the other hand your summary seems to have little to do with what Leibniz actually suggested.

It got some connections I guess, but I agree "the best of all possible worlds" is not exactly what I am talking about.

What about people who are able to remove themselves mentally from a painful situation, so that physically they are being abused, but mentally, they have literally removed themselves from the situation. This of course is taken place within the brain, within the imagination.

No?

Well, of course, a situation can be better with the use of the mind, but still the situation, the given moment is as good as it can get in that moment. This includes everything that happens in that moment, whether it be emotions or thoughts or whatever is happening.

My point is: There are no other moments then the one we are in, in any given time, so there can be nothing better then what we have in any given time.

So we should be satisfied and thank God for it.

 

[Armistead]

Dealing in many groups that suffer with illness, we have one saying we often use for those that have disease that they can relapse back and forth, like MS.

"This moment will pass." Knowing that this will soon end, eases the pain.
Hoping that you can wake up tomorrow and the pain may be gone or eased. Living this way, you can find more peace in the moment of pain.

Certainly, you make the best out of every moment, but not every moment is easy or the best. It is just a period of time you have to deal with.

I know many if the moment didn't pass, they would end their lives.

 

[Notedstrangeperson]

Being dead might not be a bad thing . . .

 

[dayhiker]

I think the phrase "best possible world" incudes what we can imagine.
My thought is that this isn't the best possible world and I think the is
the view of most people.
I beleive we are still in God's creative process. So what we are going
thru is God's way of creating the best possible world. This I feel
agrees with the Bible that the future will be better than the present.

dayhiker

 

[Bellicus]

I think the phrase "best possible world" incudes what we can imagine.
My thought is that this isn't the best possible world and I think the is
the view of most people.

Of course. What we can imagine, feel, think etc. is all part of the particular moment we have right now. And that particular moment is really all we have and can know anything about.

I beleive we are still in God's creative process. So what we are going
thru is God's way of creating the best possible world. This I feel
agrees with the Bible that the future will be better than the present.

dayhiker

Right. As Christians we hope for a better world, but that is just something that would make our moment right now much better. A atheist would just know the moment right now, and think it would only last till he die, so his moments would be the only thing he ever had, and it would be worse moments the from someone that didn't think life would end with death.

 

[ebia]

So you suggest there is several realities?

Philosophy has certainly played around with that idea. If your argument depends on there being only one then it had better substantiate that.

You can call it whatever you want, but we got knowledge about the bad things in life, and we always know how bad things can be, this also make us know that whatever good things we have would be better then having it worse. And it is better to have it better then something worse, then having it worse then something better. So in that way we have it as good as we can have it, when we have what we have.

You are not being consistant with your argument.

 

[dayhiker]

Bellicus,
I think I understand where your coming from with your argument.
But there is no way I can say this world today is the best possible world.
I also often find reading athiests writtings that some are optomists just like people with any other world view. SO those see a better world coming just like we do, only from a different persective obviously.

dayhiker