We cannot be saved in Christ if we did not sin in Adam.

[twin1954]

We cannot be saved in Christ if we did not sin in Adam.

What do you think? Is this a true statement?

 

[JustAsIam77]

I think that would be the logical progression of thought, no sin in the garden no need for salvation..is this a trick question?

 

[twin1954]

I think that would be the logical progression of thought, no sin in the garden no need for salvation..is this a trick question?

No it isn't a trick question. But it does have a meaning that I had hoped someone here would get. Here is a hint. It is a statement that I intend to make to introduce a theological subject in the morning.

Stay tuned, if no one gets it I will reveal what I intend by it.

 

[lesliedellow]

We cannot be saved in Christ if we did not sin in Adam.

What do you think?

I think you are trying to take a pot shot at the theory of evolution, but no amount of wishing it were untrue will make it so.

Proverbs 3.5-7 – Living with a paradox.

 

[BryanW92]

We cannot be saved in Christ if we did not sin in Adam.

What do you think? Is this a true statement?

Let's break it down a bit.

"We cannot be saved..." Through God, all things are possible so that phrase makes the statement false.

"if we did not sin in Adam" Would we even exist if Adam had not sinned? If he had not sinned, "human" would be fundamentally different than what we are today. Without Adam's sin, we would be living in full communion with God right now (assuming that no one else ever tried to eat from the tree after Adam). Sitting at the feet of God, or listening to the teachings of Jesus would be our default condition without Adam's sin. Adam was our Prometheus. He gave us the ability to make the world a messy place where we could break things and fix things on our own. God gave us the Old Covenant and the New Covenant to keep us on track so we could progress to our destiny of returning to him one day. Jesus gives us the means to make that destiny happen since we cannot do it on our own.

 

[twin1954]

I think you are trying to take a pot shot at the theory of evolution, but no amount of wishing it were untrue will make it so.

Proverbs 3.5-7 – Living with a paradox.

No it has nothing to do with evolution. It has to do with a theological teaching concerning how sinners are saved.

 

[twin1954]

Let's break it down a bit.

"We cannot be saved..." Through God, all things are possible so that phrase makes the statement false.

Not quite. God works through means and has set up a means by which sinners are saved in Christ in a particular way and no other. Certainly God is wise and powerful enough to do whatever He intends to do but He has put in place a system of righteousness and justice that demands that sinners be saved only in a certain way. Add the fact that you didn't really give the full quote that pertains to your objection. I said we cannot be saved in Christ. Therefore your objection is without merit. I hope that came out as lovingly as it was intended to be.

"if we did not sin in Adam" Would we even exist if Adam had not sinned? If he had not sinned, "human" would be fundamentally different than what we are today. Without Adam's sin, we would be living in full communion with God right now (assuming that no one else ever tried to eat from the tree after Adam). Sitting at the feet of God, or listening to the teachings of Jesus would be our default condition without Adam's sin. Adam was our Prometheus. He gave us the ability to make the world a messy place where we could break things and fix things on our own. God gave us the Old Covenant and the New Covenant to keep us on track so we could progress to our destiny of returning to him one day. Jesus gives us the means to make that destiny happen since we cannot do it on our own.

Actually there would have been no need of Jesus if Adam hadn't sinned. Now to properly understand the statement we must begin at who Adam was. He was the first man created in innocence. All other humans, with the exception of Christ Jesus the Lord, came from his loins. He is the federal head and representative of all that come from him. When he sinned we all sinned in him. We all became guilty before God by the on sin of Adam. Death passed on us all because of his one sin. Rom. 5:12-19. The reason that we cannot be saved in Christ unless we sinned in Adam is that we are saved in the same way that we are damned in Adam. The Lord Jesus Christ is our Representative Head, or Federal Head as it is known, and just as the sin of Adam was imputed to all his seed as though we had done it ourselves the righteousness of Christ is imputed to all His seed by spiritual generation. We are saved by One the same way we were damned by one. If any deny the sin of Adam being imputed to us they must also deny the righteousness of Christ being imputed to us.

 

[JustAsIam77]

I agree that there would be no need for Jesus if Adam hadn't sinned, my point exactly. The rest is circular and comes back to that basic hypothetical point.

I'm missing something cause I know how devout of a theologian you are.

 

[twin1954]

I agree that there would be no need for Jesus if Adam hadn't sinned, my point exactly. The rest is circular and comes back to that basic hypothetical point.

I'm missing something cause I know how devout of a theologian you are.

I am talking about Federal Headship. Here is a link that puts it is simple language:Federal Headship | Federal Headship is a Biblical Concept | Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry

 

[hedrick]

Fortunately Reformed theology is better equipped than some to deal with a non-literal Adam. Calvin didn’t assert that we are guilty of Adam’s sin. Rather, we inherit a corrupted nature. The fact that we evolved that way rather than inherited it from Adam doesn’t change our need for grace.

So what’s the significance of Gen 3? That story shows us that even when put in a perfect environment, the man sins. Sin doesn’t come from our environment, or ignorance, or anything else. It is a result of our nature.

Does this change God’s level of responsibility for sin? Nope. In both Gen 3 and the real world, God doesn’t cause sin directly. However he allows it, and in fact, with much of the Reformed tradition, I would say it’s part of his plan. God never intended us to be perfect on our own. He always intended us to depend upon his grace. Rom 11:32.

Would Jesus have been needed in an unfallen world? Of course this is a pretty hypothetical question, since God's plan called for the fall. Presumably the cross wouldn’t have been necessary, and it also wouldn’t have happened, since it was the result of an injustice that wouldn’t have existed. But the NT passages speaking of Christ’s preexistence say the world was made through him. He was part of the plan from the beginning. In an unfallen world, he would still have brought the Kingdom of God, and he would still be God's presence with us. Of course his Kingdom wouldn’t have been such a radical change, since people would have been much closer to God in an unfallen world. But I'm not sure what value this kind of speculation has.

Interestingly, Calvin believes that something I would call death would have been around even in an unfallen world. We were never intended to live forever in our current form. For him what the fall did was turn the transition from a peaceful change to a new mode of existence, to one that is frightening and painful, which is what death is for us. So in that sense death does come from sin, and spreads to all because all have sinned.

 

[moonbeam]

We cannot be saved in Christ if we did not sin in Adam.

What do you think? Is this a true statement?

Yes.

When was Adam saved in Christ….before, or after, he (Adam) transgressed ?

.

 

[GQ Chris]

Actually there would have been no need of Jesus if Adam hadn't sinned. Now to properly understand the statement we must begin at who Adam was. He was the first man created in innocence. All other humans, with the exception of Christ Jesus the Lord, came from his loins. He is the federal head and representative of all that come from him. When he sinned we all sinned in him. We all became guilty before God by the on sin of Adam. Death passed on us all because of his one sin. Rom. 5:12-19. The reason that we cannot be saved in Christ unless we sinned in Adam is that we are saved in the same way that we are damned in Adam. The Lord Jesus Christ is our Representative Head, or Federal Head as it is known, and just as the sin of Adam was imputed to all his seed as though we had done it ourselves the righteousness of Christ is imputed to all His seed by spiritual generation. We are saved by One the same way we were damned by one. If any deny the sin of Adam being imputed to us they must also deny the righteousness of Christ being imputed to us.

Thanks for clearing this up for me. I got someone on another forum trying to argue that Adam's sins aren't imputed to us and he used that passage in Ezekiel regarding the son not being judged for his father's sins.