We can remit others sins???

[SharonL]

I have revived this thread - go to the end for the revision - you will be surprised.



I have a friend that said she had a mother-in-law that was very mean and never accepted God - she said she loved her very much and when she was dying - she stepped in as an intercessor and remited her sins for her and she believes she is in Heaven.

I said no way - but she read scripture that says that by the cleanliness of your hands you can remit others sins.
I'll have to find the Scripture - But also John 20:23 -
Jesus said to the Deciples - "Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained."

Do you know of this Scripture and do you believe this is possible.

Thanks to Christinia - she found the Scripture - Job 22:30 - this muddies the water a little more. - He will even deliver one who is not innocent; Yes, he will be delivered by the purity of your hands.

 

[probinson]

I think everyone has to make a decision for themselves. I don't believe it's possible for us to make that decision for anyone.

 

[charityagape]

I don't think that you can remit someone into heaven, but those verses are interesting.

Also I always wondered about the one in Ephesians or thereabouts about the believing wife santifying the unbelieving husband--what does that mean?

 

[BarbB]

I don't think that this is possible, Sharon. I believe I read in GT that there's a teeny tiny RCC doctrine that states this, but no one was rushing to support it. Of course, the Mormons believe that they can save dead people by proxy baptism after their deaths. They do it in Jews names.

I know there are verses that a believing wife is the salvation of her husband, but I always believed that it was because of her faith that her husband would come to faith also. Not because she would remit his sins. That just doesn't sound right, does it?

LOL, charityagape - you beat me by a couple of minutes!

 

[Christina M]

Some refer to Job 22:30

He will even deliver one who is not innocent; Yes, he will be delivered by the purity of your hands.

 

[PETE_]

I have a friend that said she had a mother-in-law that was very mean and never accepted God - she said she loved her very much and when she was dying - she stepped in as an intercessor and remited her sins for her and she believes she is in Heaven.

I said no way - but she read scripture that says that by the cleanliness of your hands you can remit others sins.
I'll have to find the Scripture - But also John 20:23 -
Jesus said to the Deciples - "Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained."

Do you know of this Scripture and do you believe this is possible.

John 20:23
Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.
The meaning of the passage is not that man can forgive sins that belongs only to God (Isa 43:23) but that they should be inspired; that in founding the church, and in declaring the will of God, they should be taught by the Holy Spirit to declare on what terms, to what characters, and to what temper of mind God would extend forgiveness of sins. It was not authority to forgive individuals, but to establish in all the churches the terms and conditions on which men might be pardoned, with a promise that God would confirm all that they taught; that all might have assurance of forgiveness who would comply with those terms; and that those who did not comply should not be forgiven, but that their sins should be retained.

 

[PETE_]

I don't think that you can remit someone into heaven, but those verses are interesting.

Also I always wondered about the one in Ephesians or thereabouts about the believing wife santifying the unbelieving husband--what does that mean?

1 Cor 7:14

[The unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife] Or rather, is to be reputed as sanctified on account of his wife; she being a Christian woman, and he, though a pagan, being by marriage one flesh with her: her sanctity, as far as it refers to outward things, may be considered as imputed to him so as to render their connection not unlawful. The case is the same when the wife is a pagan and the husband a Christian. The word sanctification here is to be applied much more to the Christian state than to any moral change in the persons; for hagioi (NT:40), saints, is a common term for Christians-those who were baptized into the faith of Christ; and as its corresponding term qªdowshiym (OT:6942) signified all the Jews who were in the covenant of God by circumcision, the pagans in question were considered to be in this holy state by means of their connection with those who were by their Christian profession saints.
(from Adam Clarke's Commentary, Electronic Database. Copyright (c) 1996 by Biblesoft)

 

[SharonL]

Some refer to Job 22:30

He will even deliver one who is not innocent; Yes, he will be delivered by the purity of your hands.

Yes Christina - that is the one she referred me to.

Now that sounds like what she did would have saved this lady - I still question it - but there it is in black and white.

 

[PETE_]

Some refer to Job 22:30

He will even deliver one who is not innocent; Yes, he will be delivered by the purity of your hands.

Job 22:21-30
Note, A good man is a public good. Sinners fare the better for saints, whether they are aware of it or no. If Eliphaz intended hereby (as some think he did) to insinuate that Job's prayers were not prevailing, nor his hands pure (for then he would have relieved others, much more himself), he was afterwards made to see his error, when it appeared that Job had a better interest in heaven than he had; for he and his three friends, who in this matter were not innocent, were delivered by the pureness of Job's hands, Job 42:8.
from Matthew Henry's Commentary

 

[TreeOfLife]

I have a friend that said she had a mother-in-law that was very mean and never accepted God - she said she loved her very much and when she was dying - she stepped in as an intercessor and remited her sins for her and she believes she is in Heaven.

I said no way - but she read scripture that says that by the cleanliness of your hands you can remit others sins.
I'll have to find the Scripture - But also John 20:23 -
Jesus said to the Deciples - "Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained."

Do you know of this Scripture and do you believe this is possible.

Thanks to Christinia - she found the Scripture - Job 22:30 - this muddies the water a little more. - He will even deliver one who is not innocent; Yes, he will be delivered by the purity of your hands.

Yes Ma'am, I certainly believe you can. Your posts on this forum day by day display your love for Jesus. Your compassion is an expression of the heart of God.

 

[BarbB]

Job 22:21-30
Note, A good man is a public good. Sinners fare the better for saints, whether they are aware of it or no. If Eliphaz intended hereby (as some think he did) to insinuate that Job's prayers were not prevailing, nor his hands pure (for then he would have relieved others, much more himself), he was afterwards made to see his error, when it appeared that Job had a better interest in heaven than he had; for he and his three friends, who in this matter were not innocent, were delivered by the pureness of Job's hands, Job 42:8.
from Matthew Henry's Commentary

I agree that sinners fare better under the saints than under other sinners. Especially under good leaders than being led by others who are not righteous.

But this has scary implications. What about only being saved by the name of Jesus. What about having the unrighteous in heaven - quite frankly I'm not that happy to know that I'll spend eternity with someone who rejected Jesus and God all their lives - lived like hell and died without salvation and repentence.

 

[TreeOfLife]

I agree that sinners fare better under the saints than under other sinners. Especially under good leaders than being led by others who are not righteous.

But this has scary implications. What about only being saved by the name of Jesus. What about having the unrighteous in heaven - quite frankly I'm not that happy to know that I'll spend eternity with someone who rejected Jesus and God all their lives - lived like hell and died without salvation and repentence.

You may very well feel like that now, but that's not really the point is it? When we shuffle off this mortal coil, things will be so much more easily loved.

Aren't we called to that now?

 

[PETE_]

I agree that sinners fare better under the saints than under other sinners. Especially under good leaders than being led by others who are not righteous.

But this has scary implications. What about only being saved by the name of Jesus. What about having the unrighteous in heaven - quite frankly I'm not that happy to know that I'll spend eternity with someone who rejected Jesus and God all their lives - lived like hell and died without salvation and repentence.

They were not saved by Job but because of Job. Even if someone could die for the sins of another(and I do no think that is the case) this passage does not work because you could only cover the sin of one man.
Job 22:30
[And it is delivered by the pureness of thine hands] Or, rather, he, i.e., the wicked, for whom you pray, will be delivered by the pureness of thine hands. That is, God will save him in answer to the prayers of a righteous man. Your upright and holy life; your pure hands stretched out in supplication, shall be the means of saving him. No one can tell how many blessings are conferred on wicked people because the righteous pray for them. No one can tell how many a wicked son is spared, and ultimately saved, in answer to the intercessions of a holy parent; nor can the wicked world yet know how much it owes its preservation, and the numberless blessings which it enjoys, to the intercessions of the saints. It is one of the innumerable blessings of being a child of God thus to be permitted to be the means of bringing down blessings on others, and saving sinners from ruin. All the friends of God may thus confer unspeakable benefits to others; and they who have "an interest at the throne of grace" should plead without ceasing for the salvation of guilty and dying people.
(from Barnes' Notes, Electronic Database. Copyright (c) 1997 by Biblesoft)

 

[SharonL]

Yes Ma'am, I certainly believe you can. Your posts on this forum day by day display your love for Jesus. Your compassion is an expression of the heart of God.

Thank you very much TOL - that makes my day - because that is all I want is to serve my Jesus - my favorite song is "Here I am Lord - send me - send me"

 

[Daniels]

Jn

20:23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and
whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.​

 

[Halel]

From Andrew Wommack's website http://www.awmi.net/bible/joh_20_23

John 20:23

Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; [and] whose soever [sins] ye retain, they are retained.
Note 7 at Jn. 20:23: The meaning of this verse has been hotly debated for centuries. One thing is certain, this does not mean we have the power to justify a person from his sins so that he is born again; only God can do that.
Many people have taught that Jesus is saying that if we fail to witness to others, we are retaining their sins unto them, and if we do share His love with others, then we are remitting their sins. Although there is truth to that statement, that is not what this verse is teaching. This is rather dealing with the temporal effects that sin has on a person's life. There is not only a future death penalty for sins, but sin destroys us emotionally and physically in this life, too. It is this present destruction that sin brings into a person's life that Jesus gave us power to remit.
Through intercession, we can remit a person's sins so that even though he has sown to the flesh and deserves to reap corruption (Gal. 6:8), he will not reap what he has sown. This is done for the purpose of loosing a person from the bondage that Satan desires to hold him in until he sees the light and repents. This is only a temporary situation and must be continually repeated if the person we are praying for is continuing to live in sin.
On the other hand, there are times when it is not in the best interest of an individual to remit his sins. There are times when he needs to be made painfully aware of the consequences of his sins. In these cases, we have power to retain his sins (see note 5 on church discipline at Mt. 18:17, p. 218); that is, we withdraw our intercession and he reaps what he sows in hope that this will cause him to turn back to God.

From http://www.justforcatholics.org/a08.htm

Forgiving And Retaining Sins​

Question: In John 20:23, Jesus told the disciples, "If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained." You stated that it is clear that Jesus gave them power to forgive. This verse has never been a clear statement to me. What is the meaning?
Answer: I appreciate your difficulties and problems in understanding John 20:23. I also struggled with its interpretation because I honestly wanted to know its correct meaning. The issue - forgiveness of sins - is absolutely vital to all of us, whether Catholic, Evangelical, and indeed all people. All of us are sinners, all of us need to know how to receive God's gracious pardon.
You write that it has never been a clear statement to you. Oftentimes our religious preconceptions dull our vision. To a Roman Catholic the meaning is "obvious" - Jesus commissioned the priests to perform the sacrament of penance. He does not even realize that the essential aspects of the sacrament such as confession, or hearing confession by a priest, absolution, or performing penance, are not even mentioned. Similarly, an Evangelical sees the power to forgive linked to the preaching of the Gospel. He too does not notice that there is no mention of believing in Jesus or the preaching of the Gospel.
Forget for a moment your preconceptions, and ask yourself: Did Jesus give the apostles the power to remit sins? I trust that you would agree that, yes, a straightforward understanding of "If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them" implies that Jesus gave the disciples power to forgive sin.
That leads us to ask another question. He gave them power to forgive, but what KIND of power did he give them? Or to put it in another way, He told them to forgive, but did He also tell them HOW they should forgive?
I don't think it is possible from this verse alone to answer that question. Yes, He gave them power to forgive, but in this context He does not state what kind of power He entrusted to them. We cannot simply assume that it is by absolution or by the preaching of the Gospel. The issue must be decided by referring to other portions of Scripture that deal with the same subject. Specifically we want to know how the apostles remitted sins.
Did the apostles hear confessions and prescribe penance? Did they assume the role of Judges and give judicial sentences in the Name of God (as the Catholic church teaches)? Or did they proclaim the Gospel and assure believers that their sins are forgiven (as Evangelicals teach)?
If you are familiar with the Acts of the Apostles, and the rest of the New Testament, you should have no problem to identify which interpretation is consistent with the rest of the Bible.
In conclusion I say that Jesus gave the disciples power to forgive. This we know from John 20:23. Whether He gave them DECLARATIVE or JUDICIAL power; and whether He made the apostles PREACHERS or JUDGES must be established from the study of the New Testament. For further discussion, please read the following article: The Forgiveness of Sins.

I did a quick search and found these 2 different sides of teh debate. Thought I'd post them both here to see what you guys think,

 

[J4Jesus]

We can remit others sins???

I think everyone has to make a decision for themselves. I don't believe it's possible for us to make that decision for anyone.

probinson
I agree with you. Its whosoever will call on the name of the Lord shall be saved. Every person has that responsibility himself.



SharonL
If someone sins against us, we can keep them in bondage if we are unforgiving. But when we forgive how they sinned against us, then it frees them and the Lord will deal with them Himself.

As far as a wife sanctifing the husband, sancified means to set aside or apart - it doesnt mean salvation. Read farther on that. Its a means of sanctifying your children.

 

[Daniels]

James

5:14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and
let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the
Lord:
5:15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise
him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.​

 

[PETE_]

James

5:14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and
let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the
Lord:
5:15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise
him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.​

James 5:15
James 5:15
And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.
[And the prayer of faith shall save the sick] That is, God will often make these the means of a sick man's recovery; but there often are cases where faith and prayer are both ineffectual, because God sees it will be prejudicial to the patient's salvation to be restored; and therefore all faith and prayer on such occasions should be exerted on this ground: "If it be most for thy glory, and the eternal good of this man's soul, let him be restored; if otherwise, Lord, pardon, purify him, and take him to thy glory."
[The Lord shall raise him up] Not the elders, how faithfully and fervently soever they have prayed.
[And if he have committed sins] So as to have occasioned his present malady, they shall be forgiven him; for being the cause of the affliction it is natural to conclude that, if the effect be to cease, the cause must be removed. We find that in the miraculous restoration to health, under the powerful hand of Christ, the sin of the party is generally said to be forgiven, and this also before the miracle was performed on the body: hence, there was a maxim among the Jews, and it seems to be founded in common sense and reason, that God never restores a man miraculously to health until he has pardoned his sins; because it would be incongruous for God to exert his miraculous power in saving a body, the soul of which was in a state of condemnation to eternal death, because of the crimes it had committed against its Maker and Judge. Here then it is God that remits the sin, not in reference to the unction, but in reference to the cure of the body, which he is miraculously to effect.
from Adam Clarke's Commentary

 

[Cromwe11]

Some refer to Job 22:30

He will even deliver one who is not innocent; Yes, he will be delivered by the purity of your hands.

I would look at this as a messianic prophecy. Remember that none of us are innocent, we are saved by the purity of Jesus' hands. We are not saved because we are innocent. Thus I think this most likely refers to the fact that the guilty (us) are saved through the innocense of one (Jesus).

In regards to the verse in John 20 about remitting sins. This is not a doctrine popular among evangelicals but I dare to offer it anyway. This statement by Jesus follows the event where he breathed on the disciples and say "receive the Holy Spirit". He then went on to tell them they could remit sins (note not only remit, but also retain, in other words they could refuse someone forgiveness).
The fact that this is preceeded by the mysterious breathing on and "receive ye the Holy Spirit" leads me to believe that Jesus is here giving a special grant of authority to the 12 disciples.
They as the leaders of the church, and those who they appointed to lead the church needed the authority to forgive and to cast out (or not forgive).

This should not be understood as an exclusive method of forgiveness. In otherwords, one does not have to recieve absolution from an apostle (or duly ordained church leader) in order to recieve forgiveness... Forgiveness can and is recieved from God through repentance and faith directly. However, this should be seen as a special gifting God gave to the church above and beyond.
I view it much like healing. Anyone can pray for another, or themselves to be healed, and God may do so. But the bible still says "if anyone is sick let them go to the elders and the elders annoint them with oil and the prayer of faith shall heal the sick".

Its not that these things are exclusive to the eldership of the church, but rather that the eldership is given special authority to aid believers above and beyond the normal.