We are to call out and judge false teachers.

BravoM said:

Oh, you have no idea how long and hard I've been digging.
In one such example if I brought it up a certain denomination here would get "offended" at the truth.
This place has more rules than Reddit.

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Oh, I assure you I could be a lot more offensive, with this topic.

FutureAndAHope said:

and gets some good nuggets of truth

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Exactly.. no one denomination or self professing church holds exclusive rights to truth. God would not entertain such power being given to man. Even the naysayers recognize God by verbally not recognizing Him,

BravoM said:

Who are the majority and minority according to you?

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Realistically there is no such thing for nothing of man is correct or truth.

pdudgeon said:

Spurgen himself was a Protestant, so that would be the pot calling the kettle black.
What I found in my search was the further back you go into history, the closer you come to God's Truth.

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So why aren't you Jewish? They are the original people of God.

BravoM said:

Social media is horrible for this world.

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Is that why you're participating in this online forum?

timothyu said:

Only if it is expected to be one sided. But it does allow the minority thinkers to think they are a majority based on likes

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This is self-contradictory.

BravoM said:

Who are the majority and minority according to you?
I have found a couple of non-main stream social media sites that are much better. All the rest are owned by the Left and after overturning Roe and their reactions we know what side they are on.
Pelosi and Biden "claim" to be Catholic but are pro-unborn baby murder. Therefore, NOT Catholic.
The Bible lists the requirements for a pastor and elder. "Husband of one wife" a woman can never be.

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Oh, here we go again. "The" Left is the source of all evil. That sounds a lot like Animal Farm's mantra: four legs good, two legs bad. Why can't you think beyond simple judgements of others?

"Pro-unborn baby murder" is inflammatory rhetoric without a single grain of truth. If you asked either President Biden or Speaker Pelosi if they favor "unborn baby murder", they would dismiss you as a nut (if they responded at all). Who are you to judge who is Catholic and who isn't?

BravoM said:

Charles Spurgeon's warnings to pastors who won't call out false teachers.

There is a difference between our leaders who've fallen and failed vs those who know they are doing wrong and yet deceive and lead astray others.
Kenneth Copeland is the worst of these. Joel Osteen and his wife. Joyce Meyers who has no business in front of any church. She even sells bibles with her name on the front!
Todd White. A grown man who dresses like a teenager and cries (falsely) at the drop of a hat.

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That being said, we don’t need Charles Spurgeon, who I disagree with on many theological issues but recognize as a celebrated Baptist preacher, to tell us this, rather Spurgeon is preaching from the warnings of our Lord in the Gospel about wolves in sheeps’ clothing, and also I would note, St. Paul in Galatians 1:8-9 directs that if anyone comes preaching a Gospel other than the one taught by the Apostles, they are anathema. On this basis the Christian Church rejected Simon Magus, Nicolas the Deacon, Cerinthus the Docetist, Marcion, Valentinus, Tatian, Severian, Montanus, Mani, Paul of Samosata, Arius and the Arians, like Macedonius the Pneumatomach, and later, Muhammed, the Albigensians, Cathari, Bogomils and Paulicans, the Soccinians, the later Unitarians, Joseph Smith and the Mormons, Mary Baker Eddy and Christian Science and the rest of the New Thought movement, Leo Tolstoy and the Doukhobors (Russian Unitarians who emigrated to Canada and caused civil disturbances by parading in the nude, forcing the provinces to pass laws against indecent exposure, which had previously been unnecessary, one assumes due to the cold weather), and also more seriously, arson), and more recent and disturbing cults.

I feel like there needs to be an ecumenical discussion about the Prosperity Gospel and whether it is Christian. I personally think we should decide for it to be rejected as heresy, but most of these preachers are Nicene Trinitarians and thus qualify as Christians according to the CF.com Statement of Faith. This is why an ecumenical condemnation of the Prosperity Gospel by Protestants, Catholics and Orthodox is needed, I think, because while these preachers do without exception violate various anathemas of, for example, the Eastern Orthodox Church, the entire Christian community is much more slow moving. Also Prosperity Gospel preachers tried to infiltrate the Coptic Orthodox Church, which is Oriental Orthodox, by influencing priests of parishes in extra-diocesan areas, who usually lack seminary training and instead have degrees in accounting or engineering, and whose training is limited to 40 days of instruction at a monastery. These areas, being extra-diocesan, lacked bishops with authority over the priests; there were General Bishops but they were there mainly to ordain people (mostly boys being ordained as Psaltis (Readers or Singers, but occasionally a priest, on rare occasions). The solution for the Copts was to create new dioceses with diocesan bishops who had the authority to correct the parish priests when they erred, and to drive out the Prosperity Gospel material.

This was happening in both Egypt and the diapsora, such as the US.

BravoM said:

Another problem is that many people and "Christians" are dumb enough to believe them!
This shows they rarely open their bible, never learned, and simply believe b/c someone has "pastor/preacher/priest" with their name they are 100% correct on everything and to never be confronted or questioned.

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And they were never properly catechized in their youth or as adults.

The Liturgist said:

And they were never properly catechized in their youth or as adults.

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Isn't "properly catechized" the same as instructed in a particular denomination's interpretation of the God's truth? I was "properly catechized" by a Pentecostal pastor -- until I learned the truth from the Bible. From then on, that has been my source of truth, not someone else's idea of the "truth".

"We are to call out and judge false teachers."
The first post's topic line says.
But who is the "we"?
Is this calling restricted to duly qualified, trained, appointed, and serving elders within the churches?
Or is this calling extended to everyone who wants to "call out" alleged false teachers?

Xeno.of.athens said:

But who is the "we"?

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Those of the Kingdom, not of the world of man or it's human influenced institutions (including religious). Don't forget that Jesus called out the Sanhedrin for doing what Christianity also does.

timothyu said:

Those of the Kingdom, not of the world of man or it's human influenced institutions.

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These "[people] of the kingdom" are qualified to "call out" alleged false teachers?

Xeno.of.athens said:

These "[people] of the kingdom" are qualified to "call out" alleged false teachers?

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They've been calling out the world of man as backwards (hence their teachers false) for almost 2000 years. They of the Way were even labelled as haters of man.

BobRyan said:

No doubt further back in history the closer you come to the NT church. Just like the further back you went in history at the time of Christ - the closer you came to the Nation-Church started by God at Sinai. But in both examples there were periods of reformation and revival that later lapse back then again - spring back to life again.

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The wonder of it all, is that men never grow tired of trying to outdo God when it comes to religion.

pescador said:

So why aren't you Jewish? They are the original people of God.

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Because the Triune God was there from the beginning, but the Jews didn't know it.

The Liturgist said:

That being said, we don’t need Charles Spurgeon, who I disagree with on many theological issues but recognize as a celebrated Baptist preacher, to tell us this, rather Spurgeon is preaching from the warnings of our Lord in the Gospel about wolves in sheeps’ clothing, and also I would note, St. Paul in Galatians 1:8-9 directs that if anyone comes preaching a Gospel other than the one taught by the Apostles, they are anathema. On this basis the Christian Church rejected Simon Magus, Nicolas the Deacon, Cerinthus the Docetist, Marcion, Valentinus, Tatian, Severian, Montanus, Mani, Paul of Samosata, Arius and the Arians, like Macedonius the Pneumatomach, and later, Muhammed, the Albigensians, Cathari, Bogomils and Paulicans, the Soccinians, the later Unitarians, Joseph Smith and the Mormons, Mary Baker Eddy and Christian Science and the rest of the New Thought movement, Leo Tolstoy and the Doukhobors (Russian Unitarians who emigrated to Canada and caused civil disturbances by parading in the nude, forcing the provinces to pass laws against indecent exposure, which had previously been unnecessary, one assumes due to the cold weather), and also more seriously, arson), and more recent and disturbing cults.

I feel like there needs to be an ecumenical discussion about the Prosperity Gospel and whether it is Christian. I personally think we should decide for it to be rejected as heresy, but most of these preachers are Nicene Trinitarians and thus qualify as Christians according to the CF.com Statement of Faith. This is why an ecumenical condemnation of the Prosperity Gospel by Protestants, Catholics and Orthodox is needed, I think, because while these preachers do without exception violate various anathemas of, for example, the Eastern Orthodox Church, the entire Christian community is much more slow moving. Also Prosperity Gospel preachers tried to infiltrate the Coptic Orthodox Church, which is Oriental Orthodox, by influencing priests of parishes in extra-diocesan areas, who usually lack seminary training and instead have degrees in accounting or engineering, and whose training is limited to 40 days of instruction at a monastery. These areas, being extra-diocesan, lacked bishops with authority over the priests; there were General Bishops but they were there mainly to ordain people (mostly boys being ordained as Psaltis (Readers or Singers, but occasionally a priest, on rare occasions). The solution for the Copts was to create new dioceses with diocesan bishops who had the authority to correct the parish priests when they erred, and to drive out the Prosperity Gospel material.

This was happening in both Egypt and the diapsora, such as the US.

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You have chosen an interesting topic when you get into the Prosperity Gospel.
Yes, it's an incorrect interpretation of what God wants for us. But people who are grasping at riches for their own sake, have often found that particular doctrine wanting in the end.

pdudgeon said:

You have chosen an interesting topic when you get into the Prosperity Gospel.
Yes, it's an incorrect interpretation of what God wants for us. But people who are grasping at riches for their own sake, have often found that particular doctrine wanting in the end.

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In the end everyone dies, many after prolonged disability. The ones who have prolonged disability must get a feeling that the prosperity "gospel" isn't quite right.

pdudgeon said:

You have chosen an interesting topic when you get into the Prosperity Gospel.
Yes, it's an incorrect interpretation of what God wants for us. But people who are grasping at riches for their own sake, have often found that particular doctrine wanting in the end.

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Indeed, the only people who seem to be prospering from the Prosperity Gospel, are the preachers.

While poverty does not guarantee holiness, it is worth noting that many great Christians going back to St. John the Baptist, whose Nativity was commemorated on Friday, a day of rejoicing for those of us who oppose abortion, and St. Anthony the Great, and the great mendicant friars of the Western Church during the 13th century, not just St. Dominic, who I admire greatly, and Francis of Assisi, but the lesser known mendicants like the founders of the Carmelites, the Servites, the Minims, and the ransoming orders, the Mercedarians and Trinitarians (who I also particularly like), who embraced poverty so that the funds they collected could be used to pay the ransom of Christians abducted from ships and to an even greater extent, coastal roads in Italy and around the Mediterranean, by marauding Islamic pirate-terrorists, something we in recent years experienced again with the piracy in Somalia, but whereas we were blessed with naval forces to counter the pirates, 13th century Europe was poor and technologically and militarily often at a disadvantage to Muslims.

Likewise, more recent ascetics embraced poverty, such as the Holy Fool St. Basil the Blessed, who gave raw meat to Ivan the Terrible as a rebuke to the Czar for his brutality, and the hermit St. Seraphim of Sarov.

However God includes wealthy Christians in his plan for salvation, but their vocation is more difficult, but not impossible, as Christ points out with his discourse with the young rich man recorded in the Synoptics.

The message of the Prosperity Gospel that Christians should expect Earthly wealth as the reward for their faith directly and obviously contradicts the New Testament. Its a bit like the Unitarianism of Soccinius and other Sola Scriptura Unitarians, even as late as William Ellery Channing, which lacks even the remote possibility of Arianism. It is a direct contradiction, which exploits the ignorance of pious middle class and lower middle class Christians who are poorly catechized, not well versed in scripture, forgetful, and often financially desperate, hoping for divine deliverance from poverty, which is a possibility, but they are being deceived by charlatans who seek to enrich themselves at the expense of those under financial strain.

Given the increased poverty caused by Covid and the inflationary crisis, I believe the prosperity gospel preachers, especially the more subtle ones, are likely to expand.

I myself oppose even passing the collections plate during church services; it is not a rubric of the ancient liturgical texts, and it is not an offertory, in the original sense of the word: in the early church, the Offertory was a procession of the unconsecrated bread and wine to the altar before the Eucharist, and this has been revived in Anglicanism, but has never ceased to be the practice of the Eastern churches, occurring at the start of the liturgy in the Coptic Rite, and in the Byzantine Rite, during the Great Entrance. I also think alms should not be placed directly on the Holy Table for blessing, but rather discrete places for people to give alms should be placed in the church, and at appropriate times these should be collected and a prayer of thanks given for them, and then they should accounted for along with voluntary oblations or tithes given by parishioners of means, and these should then be distributed, with those needed to cover ecclesiastical expenses set aside and the rest distributed to charity in a transparent manner according to a transparent integrated spending plan for both the costs of running the church and the charitable giving, agreed by the congregation, so the alms reach those who need them with a minimum of delay and bureaucracy. Of course, the larger the church, the more delay and bureaucracy is inevitable and necessary to counter the diabolical acts of embezzlers, fraudsters and simonists, but this is counteracted by the larger amounts being given. The Roman Catholic Church for example is the world’s largest charitable donor.

pescador said:

So why aren't you Jewish? They are the original people of God.

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A great many Jews converted to Christianity. A large percentage of the membership of the Syriac Orthodox, Syriac Catholic, Antiochian Orthodox, Melkite Catholic, and the Nasranis, or St. Thomas Christians, of the Malabar Coast, who are members of three Syriac Orthodox churches, two Protestant churches in the Anglican communion, three Roman Catholic Rites, and both the Assyrian and Ancient factions of the Church of the East, and some of the members of these churches are endogamous and entirely of Jewish descent, whereas others are descended from the Kochin Jews of Kerala, who still maintain a beautiful synagogue but almost entirely emigrated to Israel or elsewhere (Vidal Sassoon is the most famous of them), and lastly the Ethiopian Orthodox Christians, many of whom are entirely of Jewish descent, for Judaism was the religion of Ethiopia before it converted to Christianity.