we are so rich

[billwald]

Walk through any mall. 80% of the stuff for sale is not of any necessity. So if China and where ever is manufacturing stuff that no one needs, why does it matter?

 

[Subordinationist]

To fully answer this question would require half a day. Summary: China is the number one exporter of goods to the US. The US is the number one consumer of products that the Chinese make. China needs the US, and the US needs China. The US economy is built on essentially unnecessary products and services: Entertainment, professional sports, "insurance", over-priced clothing, advanced electronics, "customer service", varying quality housing products such as towels and toliet paper, varying quality foods and beverages, beauty products, etc. These things matter because the US and China are both increasingly built upon things that don't matter. If everyone were to realize they don't need these things, the number one consumer nation would suddenly be very conservative and practical. This would be a bad thing for not only China, US companies, and the Stock Market (based mainly on expanding company profits, i.e. people buying more), but for the US economy as a whole.




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[billwald]

The Wife and I have always lived below our income, been satisfied to live in blue collar neighborhoods and to buy clothes at the Good Will. But if everyone lived like we do the economy would crash. We thank all of you who buy toys on credit.

 

[Playerslight77]

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[Playerslight77]

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[Redneck]

Walk through any mall. 80% of the stuff for sale is not of any necessity. So if China and where ever is manufacturing stuff that no one needs, why does it matter?

It's called the decadence of a capitalistic society.

 

[Subordinationist]

Unnecessary to whom?

The human race requires nutritious food, warm clothing, shelter from the elements, and clean water. Everything else is essentially unnecessary. Thats not to say that I don't enjoy TV and pizza and the conveniences and luxuries of First World life, but it is still unnecessary. You said that, "The economy is the result of millions upon billions of individual consumer interactions", which is true, in part. The US economy is as large and powerful as it is because of the large amount of money the people have, and the enormous variety of products to be bought. The wealth exchanges between the rich people and the rich companies with the specialized products/services can be defined as the economy in action.

But it is to someone

Our specialized products, of which only the rich nations have, are not needed. Except life saving medicine and health care. Yellow-puppet video games and miniture State of Liberities are only necessary in the fact that they create profit for a company, and jobs for the masses.

To say that these things don't matter is to tell the 250 million or so consumers in the USA that what they think doesn't matter.

Cushioned toliet seats, rainbow glitter eye liner, broadband internet, flat-screen plasma TVs, dish-washers, electric tooth-brushes, don't matter? Basiclly, no. But the better word for it is "unnecessary", not "doesn't matter". I used that terminology for the sake of relating to billwald's original post where he asked, "why does it matter?"

I bet you I can point out a number of things you have bought that I don't think matter one bit.

I'm looking at my dishwasher as I type. Its a wonderful thing. But ultimately, I believe that it would be better for the First World if we suddenly lost all our luxuries and conveniences.

While it is certainly true that increased sales lead to increased profits, it is also true that reduced costs can also lead to increased profits. It is possible for a company to make more money selling the exact same amount if they manage to sufficiently reduce their costs.

True, but the reduction of costs usually signals an increase in sales, i.e. if there is a sale people buy more. For the Stock Market, a reduction in company costs is better for their profit and thus their share-holders. Which in turn makes the people even more rich. And considering that the U.S. savings rate for the past 10 years has been around 5%, and the US savings rate for the past few months have been about 0.3%, that extra share-profit will likely go to buying more.



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[Playerslight77]

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[billwald]

It occurred to me that Moses conspired to stimulate the economy by requiring every family to torch a cow or a sheep every year. The beef industry would love it if every family had to incinerate a cow every year.

 

[Subordinationist]

Is the economy powerful because people are rich, or are people rich because the economy is a powerful mechanism of providing for both your needs and wants? I think its the latter.

http://www.aneki.com/richest.html
I would say it is more of the former. The latter is common to all First World countries.

There are also exchanges between poor people and poor companies.

Even a poor American is rich. A poor American is a rich Somalian. (this is my point)

...and enjoyment for the person buying it.

Enjoyment is not necessity. Unless your insane, and will commit suicide without Lolly, your stuffed toy.

It is the fault of uneducated easily-influenced consumers who are allowing this behavior to continue.

Exactly! This is my whole point.

Why would it be better?

When people become rich, they become fat and lazy. That is the characteristic of the American people. A people unwilling to leave the TV screen and go outside because it is hot, or its too much work, i.e. uncomfortable. People have lost touch with nature, and the rest of the non-rich world. A content, happy people see little reason to change the status quo, and thus see no reason to educate themselves. Entertainment is more fun, exciting, and since we live in a free nation, wisdom is unnecessary. This is especially chartacteristic of Generation Y.

If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be.
- Thomas Jefferson

That could just as easily account for the drop in savings as an increase in spending could.

The aging population's savings will be spent during retirement. The current population's money is being spent, contributing to the Stock Market, economy, and the maintaining of America as the greatest consumer nation on earth. Either way, its all being spent.

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[Soul Believer]

"To say that these things don't matter is to tell the 250 million or so consumers in the USA that what they think doesn't matter"

Isnt this what the government is doing by distorting the model of the market. Every economics model is based on a fully informed market so that they can assess value and allocated scarce reources to the best way their individual and collective judgement allows.

The US, and probably no other either that involves specialised manufacturing, market has two overlooked two critical elements which achieve a true and just outcome.

The first is that the accounting doctrine of Historical Cost undervalues and underprices natural resources..which is why all of our forests are being pulped for cheap paper, and secondly the market is not informed as to the full cost or price being paid for their decision in every sense under "fully informed market". These things distort the demand and supply equilibrium for finite natural resources.

Returning to the point of necessity and waste there is absolutely no doubt that economies like that are based on junk that if had never been put on the market we would never miss..

Presuming you see a problem with consumption of natural resources for the sake of consumption, to keep afloat a flawed economic model which can never in theory reach a point of sustainability or equilibrium and which will become increasingly unstable as the price of natural resources increase in line with the growth in consumption of them by China and India what is the solution ?

The solution .. if I may be so presumptuous .. is to begin labelling products with their resource input : output ratio which is the measure of environmental cost. That is to say that a single sheet of wasted paper wastes 92 times its own weight in natural resources used up in the production chain ..so its ratio would be 92:1.

With this measure in place the consumer can not only choose the most efficient of competing suppliers (and in so doing reward efficiency) but also make a decision as to whether that electric toothbrush with a resource ratio of around 350:1 (thats an environmental impact on natural resources of 35,000%) is really worth the cost to the earth or is there something else that might be a bit more reflective of the individuals sense of respect.

So what the cosumers think does matter..just so long as they are not thinking.

 

[billwald]

Typical consumer doesn't care about anything but quality and price. I'm sure not going to buy recycled paper when virgin paper is cheaper.

Second, informed consumers? You gots to be kidding. Consider ciggy butts. Says right on the lable that use according to directions and they will kill you.

Or the half of all credit card holders who carry an average balance of $8,000. Informed consumers? Or the third of all new car buyers who owe more on their old car?

 

[inquisitor_11]

Typical consumer doesn't care about anything but quality and price. I'm sure not going to buy recycled paper when virgin paper is cheaper.

Not necessarily- price is not the only consumer motivation, otherwise we wouldn't have an advertising industry, product differentiation or branding (or kids killing each other for their Nikes). If a consumer feels that they would rather pay a higher price for a product that delivers a better social/environmental outcome, and it is conveinent to do so, then they probably will.

Second, informed consumers? You gots to be kidding. Consider ciggy butts. Says right on the lable that use according to directions and they will kill you.

Cigarettes aren't the best example due to their addictive nature (although a good argument can be made for all consumer products having an addictive effect...). However that doesn't negate the fact that the consumer IS aware of at least some of the health effects of the product, and makes a decision on that basis. By also including the social and environmental effects on a products packaging, consumers will be able to make a decision that more accurately reflects their concerns.

Or the half of all credit card holders who carry an average balance of $8,000. Informed consumers? Or the third of all new car buyers who owe more on their old car?

These situations aren't so much about consumer knowledge (in the sense that it's used in in economics). It's got a lot more do with the pressures of our consumer culture and the misinformation (manipulation) provided through advertising .

 

[die2live]

I see our economy being built on extremely materialistic things. When 2.4 billion people live in destitut poverty and most of the rest of the world still living in a level lower than us, I almost get disgusted when I hear sales pitches because they are so petty. I'm a sales assaciate at a shoe store and I make some of those sales pitches and I get disgusted listening to myself. Honestly, I don't care if our economy would crash if we moved away from all our "unimportant things." I would see it as a big step in the right direction. Aren't we as Christians supposed to sell all we have to give to the poor. Too many Christian Americans are completely disregarding that commandment. But that's just what it is: a commandment. Not an option, extra credit opportunity or a way to win points with God. It is a command, a calling.
I don't want to offend anyone or disregard what you hold to be important. Honestly, the little unimportant things are important to me as well. But what's more important, a new DVD or a poverty-stricken child's dinner. Most of the shoes I sell at my store are around fifty dollars(which is considered cheap by most buyers). But I could go to a thrft store or a Walmart and get them for less than half that price even with my employee discount. Our economy is wasteful and materialistic. Maybe it needs to crash.

 

[rachewil15]

I think people are selfish today, and have way too high living standards. It's kind of ridiculous. Kids growing up right now, (little kids) are so spoiled now. I babysit for a kid, only child, who has a room just for toys , and it's filled. Hlaf of the things, truly, have never been touched. They're still in their boxes. Every week I go there and try to get him to use one but... no success. I think that the materialism there is today is just amazing... in a bad way.

 

[billwald]

First, I don't know amuch about the rest of the world but I suspect that the people in the uncivilized areas were satisfied with their live until they discovered consumer goods.

Second, In the USofA proverty is generally NOT cause by a lack of money but the inability to handle money and to plan ahead.

 

[Playerslight77]

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[moneyman]

I found this on a bulletin board and decided to try it. A little while back, I was browsing through newsgroups and came across an article similar to this that said you could make thousands of dollars within weeks with only an initial investment of $6.00! So I thought, "Yeah right, this must be a scam", but like most of us, I was curious, so I kept reading. Anyway, it said that you send $1.00 to each of the 6 names and address stated in the article. You then place your own name and address in the bottom of the list at #6, and post the article in at least 200 newsgroups. (There are thousands) No catch, that was it. So after thinking it over, and talking to a few people first, I thought about trying it. I figured: "what have I got to lose except 6 stamps and $6.00, right?" Then I invested the measly $6.00. Well GUESS WHAT!!? Within 7 days, I started getting money in the mail! I was shocked! I figured it would end soon, but the money just kept pouring in!!! In my first week, I made about $25.00. By the end of the second week I had made a total of over $1,000! In the third week I had over $3,189 and it's still growing!!! This is now my fourth week and I have made a total of just over $6,345 and it's still coming in rapidly!!!! It's certainly worth $6.00, and 6 stamps, I have spent more than that before!! Let me tell you how this works and most importantly, why it works.... Also, make sure you print a copy of this article NOW, so you can get the information off of it as you need it. I promise you that if you follow the directions exactly, that you will start making more money than you thought possible by doing something so easy! Suggestion: Read this entire message carefully! (Print it out or download it.) Follow the simple directions and watch the money come in! It's easy. It's legal. And, your investment is only $6.00 (Plus postage) IMPORTANT: This is not a scam; it is not indecent; it is not illegal; and it is virtually no risk - it really works!!!! If all of the following instructions are adhered to, you will receive extraordinary dividends. PLEASE NOTE: Please follow these directions EXACTLY, and $50,000 or more can be yours in 20 to 60 days. This program remains successful because of the honesty and integrity of the participants. Please continue its success by carefully adhering to the instructions. You will now become part of the Mail Order business. In this business your product is not solid and tangible, it's a service. You are in the business of developing Mailing Lists. Many large corporations are happy to pay big bucks for quality lists. However, the money made from the mailing lists is secondary to the income which is made from people like you and me asking to be included in that list. Here are the 4 easy steps to success: STEP 1: Get 6 separate pieces of paper and write the following on each piece of paper "PLEASE PUT ME ON YOUR MAILING LIST." Now get 6 US $1.00 bills and place ONE inside EACH of the 6 pieces of paper so the bill will not be seen through the envelope (to prevent thievery). Next, place one paper in each of the 6 envelopes and seal them. You should now have 6 sealed envelopes, each with a piece of paper stating the above phrase, your name and address, and a $1.00 bill. What you are doing is creating a service. THIS IS ABSOLUTELY LEGAL! You are requesting a legitimate service and you are paying for it! Like most of us I was a little skeptical and a little worried about the legal aspects of it all. So I checked it out with the U.S. Postal Office (1-800-725-2161) and they confirmed that it is indeed legal! Mail the 6 envelopes to the following addresses:

1. L.H.
P.O. Box 7812
Huntington, WV 25778
2. Mike G
PO BOX 45033
Lower Sackville, Nova Scotia
Canada, B4E-2Z6
3. Shawn C.
5021 Fleet Wood cv.
Hornlake, MS 38637
4. D. Joss
265 S. Chrisalta Way
Anaheim, CA 92807
5. B.F.
PO BOX 341
Buzzards Bay, MA 02532
6. J Peters
2120 Storkspur Way
Las Vegas, NV 89117


STEP 2: Now take the #1 name off the list that you see above, move the other names up (6 becomes 5, 5 becomes 4, etc.) and add YOUR Name as number 6 on the list. STEP 3: Change anything you need to, but try to keep this article as close to the original as possible. Now, post your amended article to at least 200 newsgroups. (I think there are close to 24,000 groups) All you need is 200, but remember, the more you post, the more money you make! This is perfectly legal! If you have any doubts, refer to Title 18 Sec. 1302 & 1341 of the Postal laws. Keep a copy of these steps for yourself and, whenever you need money, you can use it again, and again. NOTE: You may want to retain every name and address sent to you, either on a computer or hard copy and keep the notes people send you. This VERIFIES that you are truly providing a service. (Also, it might be a good idea to wrap the $1 bill in dark paper to reduce the risk of mail theft.) So, as each post is downloaded and the directions carefully followed, six members will be reimbursed for their participation as a List Developer with one dollar each. Your name will move up the list geometrically so that when your name reaches the #1 position you will be receiving thousands of dollars in $$$CASH$$$!!!! What an opportunity for only $6.00!!! ($1.00 for each of the first six people listed above.) Send it now, add your own name to the list and you're in business! ---DIRECTIONS
----- FOR HOW TO POST TO NEWSGROUPS----------- \
Step 1) You do not need to re-type this entire letter to do your own posting. Simply hold the ‘Ctrl’ key and press the ‘a’ on your keyboard, or select ‘Select All’ from the edit menu. This highlights the entire document. Then, hold ‘Ctrl’ and press ‘c’ to copy the document into the computer’s memory. Step 2) Open a blank 'notepad' or ‘Word’ file and place your cursor at the top of the blank page. From the 'edit' menu select 'paste' or hold ‘Ctrl’ press ‘v’. This will paste a copy of the letter into the notepad or Word so that you can add your name to the list. Step 3) Save your new notepad file as a .txt file. If you want to do your postings in different settings, you'll always have this file to go back to. Step 4) Use Netscape or Internet explorer search engines and try searching for various newsgroups (on-line forums, message boards, chat sites, discussions.) Step 5) Visit these message boards and post this article as a new message by selecting paste from the edit menu. Fill in the Subject, this will be the header that everyone sees as they scroll through the list of postings in a particular group, then click the post message button. You're done with your first one! Congratulations...THAT'S IT! All you have to do is jump to different newsgroups and post away, after you get the hang of it, it will take about 30 seconds for each newsgroup! **REMEMBER, THE MORE NEWSGROUPS YOU POST IN, THE MORE MONEY YOU WILL MAKE!! BUT YOU HAVE TO POST A MINIMUM OF 200** That's it! You will begin receiving money from around the world within days! You may eventually want to rent a P.O. Box due to the large amount of mail you will receive. If you wish to stay anonymous, you can invent a name to use, as long as the postman will deliver it. **JUST MAKE SURE ALL THE ADDRESSES ARE CORRECT. ** Now the WHY part: Out of 200 postings, say I receive only 5 replies (a very low example). So then I made $5.00 with my name at #6 on the letter. Now, each of the 5 persons who just sent me $1.00 make the MINIMUM 200 postings, each with my name at #5 and only 5 persons respond to each of the original 5, that is another $25.00 for me, now those 25 each make 200 MINIMUM posts with my name at #4 and only 5 replies each, I will bring in an additional $125.00! Now, those 125 persons turn around and post the MINIMUM 200 with my name at #3 and only receive 5 replies each, I will make an additional $626.00! OK, now here is the fun part, each of those 625 persons post a MINIMUM 200 letters with my name at #2 and they each only receive 5 replies that just made me $3,125.00!!! Those 3,125 persons will all deliver this message to 200 newsgroups with my name at #1 and if still 5 persons per 200 newsgroups react I will receive $15,625! With an original investment of only $6.00! AMAZING! When your name is no longer on the list, you just take the latest posting in the newsgroups, and send out another $6.00 to names on the list, putting your name at number 6 again. And start posting again. The thing to remember is: do you realize that thousands of people all over the world are joining the internet and reading these articles everyday? JUST LIKE YOU are now!! So, can you afford $6.00 and see if it really works?? I think so... People have said, "what if the plan is played out and no one sends you the money? So what! What are the chances of that happening when there are tons of new honest users and new honest people who are joining the internet and newsgroups everyday and are willing to give it a try? Estimates are at 20,000 to 50,000 new users, every day, with thousands of those joining the actual internet. Remember, play FAIRLY and HONESTLY PLEASE REMEMBER that this program remains successful because of the honesty and integrity of the participants and by their carefully adhering to the directions. Look at it this way. If you are of integrity, the program will continue and the money that so many others have received will come your way.
PLEASE BE HONEST AND THIS WILL WORK FOR YOU!!!!!!