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Man's obedience definitely plays a role in his salvation:Works of man play no role in the salvation process. You are confusing cause and effect. Faith produces works as a fruit not as a cause. We are justified in our claim of faith when we have the fruit of works. That is what James is teaching.
The average evangelical sees the New Covenant as a lowered the bar of the law of God. He sees the OT God as a stickler for the rules, but the nice, gentle Jesus of the NT lets sin slide because He's a lot less uptight. The reality is that God has not lowered the standard. Not one bit.
We are not saved in the manner that most people imagine. We are saved by works - the works of Christ.
Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them." Mathew 5:17
The only way that God can be true to both His justice and His mercy is that, in Christ, He lived the life we should have lived and died the death we should have died. His justice was poured out on the Son in order for His mercy to be poured out upon us.
Man's obedience definitely plays a role in his salvation:
Hebrews 5:9
2 Thessalonians 1:8
1 Jn 3:10 whosoever continues to not do righteousness continues to not be of God. No verse teaches man is saved by doing nothing, then does something after he is saved.
Tell me what works, what obedience did the thief on the cross render?
In fact, the only person who ever was completely obedient was the Lord Jesus Christ.
"But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:" -Phil. 2:7-9 (KJV)
God Bless
Till all are one.
The thief is not an example of how one is saved under Christ's NT gospel. The thief was promised paradise before Christ died and His NT gospel came into effect Hebrews 9:16-17. For all we know the thief may have earlier in his life been a disciple of Christ yet later fell away into a life of crime.
Many, as Abraham, in the bible were obedient to God therefore reckoned righteous. None, other than Christ, was perfect in their obedience but God was not looking for perfect, flawless sinlessness from men as Abraham but a faithful obedience...which Abraham had Hebrews 11:8;17
Many, as Abraham, in the bible were obedient to God therefore reckoned righteous. None, other than Christ, was perfect in their obedience but God was not looking for perfect, flawless sinlessness from men as Abraham but a faithful obedience...which Abraham had Hebrews 11:8;17
but a faithful obedience...which Abraham had Hebrews 11:8;17
Let's examine what you said here.
Correct, many were obedient and reckoned righteous.
However, many also sinned numerous times after being declared "righteous". Thank God for "grace".
DeaconDean said:Let's look at your proof text.
"By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went...By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son," -Heb. 11:8,17 (KJV)
What does the two passages of scripture say?
The first two words of both say it: "By faith".
These passages speak of Abraham's faith not his obedience.
DeaconDean said:"Hebrews 11:8
By faith, Abraham, when he was called
The Alexandrian copy and the Vulgate Latin version read, "by faith he who was called Abraham"; but this call is not to be understood of his name; for though his first name Abram might be given him, in the faith of his being a great man, and his second name Abraham, when he himself was a believer; yet this change was made some years after the call referred to; which is that in ( Genesis 12:1 ) when he was called out of his own country, kindred, and father's house; which was an emblem of the call of God's people out from among the men of the world, and from their friends, relations, and acquaintance, and even out of themselves; and as Abraham was called from "Ur" of the Chaldees, so they from darkness, bondage, idolatry, and communion with wicked men; that, as he, they might not perish with idolaters, being chosen vessels, and for whom God has peculiar blessings in store: and so the grace of God is seen in calling them, without any respect to their deserts, as in calling Abraham: and the care and goodness of God may be observed, in raising up fit instruments to propagate his cause and interest."
DeaconDean said:Source
"Hebrews 11:17
By faith Abraham, when he was tried,
&c.] Or tempted; that is, by God, ( Genesis 22:1 ) . This temptation or trial respects the command given by God to Abraham, to offer up his son Isaac; which lays no foundation for a charge against God, either of sin or cruelty; for God's will is the rule of justice and goodness, and whatever he requires is just and good; and though his creatures are bound by the laws he prescribes them, he himself is not: besides, he is the Lord of life, the giver and preserver of it; and he has a right to dispose of it, and to take it away, when, and by what means, and instruments, he thinks fit; to which may be added, that the secret will of God was not that Isaac should die, but a command was given to Abraham to offer him up, for the trial of his faith and love; this was a temptation of probation, not of seduction, or to sin, as are the temptations of Satan; for God tempts no man with sin. The Jews speak F24 of ten temptations, with which Abraham was tried, and in all which he stood; and say, that this of the binding of Isaac was the tenth and last."
Source
You miss what this great chapter is all about. Just looking at it, it is a role call of great men of faith!
Here I quote:
"The order of thought followed by the apostle in Hebrews 11 was ably and helpfully set
forth by an early Puritan: "The parts of this whole chapter are two: 1. a general description of faith: verses 1 to 4. 2. An illustration or declaration of that description, by a large rehearsal of manifold examples of ancient and worthy men in the Old Testament: verses 4 to 40. The description of faith consists of three actions or effects of faith, set down in three several verses. The first effect is that faith makes things which are not (but only are hoped for), after a sort, to subsist and to be present with the believer: verse 1. The second effect is that faith makes a believer approved of God: verse 2. The third effect is that faith makes a man understand and believe things incredible to sense and reason" (Win. Perkins, 1595)."
Arthur W. Pink, Chapter 56, The Excellency of Faith, Heb. 11: 1-3, p 405
He also writes:
"Nowhere else in the Bible do we find such a lengthy and complete description of the life of faith. But here a whole chapter, the longest in the Epistle, is devoted to it. The reason for this is not far to seek. Brought up in a system with an elaborate ritual, whose worship was primarily a matter of outward symbols and ceremonies; tempted as few ever have been to walk by sight, there was a special and most pressing need for a clear and detailed analysis and description of what it means to “walk by faith.”
Source
Every commentary are in one accord, this chapter is all about the great men of faith. It shows their faith.
This is a chapter about faith.
God Bless
Till all are one.
Those OT laws allowed the to offer various sacrifices for their sins they committed.
Yes, but they were repent. Those OT laws allowed the to offer various sacrifices for their sins they committed.
Lk 1:6 "And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless."
How could John's parents be "righteous" "blameless" when they committed various sins? Because they "walked in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord" thereby receiving forgiveness of their sins.
Wow, just wow. You refuse to see that Abraham's faith INCLUDED obedience?
By FAITH Abraham...OBEYED
By FAITH Abraham..OFFERED UP
Had Abrahams' faith been void of these obedient works he never would have left he home in Genesis 12:1-4 and Issac never would have been born. As a matter of fact God would never have chosen Abraham to give those promises to if Abraham would have been disobedient. God chose Abraham because God knew that he and his descendants "would keep the way of the Lord" per Genesis 18:19. Were they perfect in keeping the way of the Lord? No, but they were obedient enough that the Lord was able to fulfill His will through them.
What if Abraham's faith did not cause him to move away? He would have had a dead faith only and never reckoned righteous, never been justified.
Psalms 119:172 says all of God's commandments are righteousness. Therefore God's command to Abraham to move was righteousness. How could Abraham ever be reckoned righteous if he disobeyed, did UNrighteousness in not moving as the Lord told him? It would not have been possible. But is was his obedient faith in doing God's righteousness in moving that led to his being reckoned righteous.
How does this disprove my position???
If Abraham had faith only, then he would not have done the obedient works of moving or offering Issac so how could he ever be reckoned righteous and justified while he remained rebellious, defiant, disobedient to the Lord's will?
Wow, just wow. You refuse to see that Abraham's faith INCLUDED obedience?
There was forgiveness of sins under the OT law. Those sins were not completely remitted and forgotten but there was forgiveness of sins...Leviticus 4:31 "And he shall take away all the fat thereof, as the fat is taken away from off the sacrifice of peace offerings; and the priest shall burn it upon the altar for a sweet savour unto the LORD; and the priest shall make an atonement for him, and it shall be forgiven him."Except there was one problem...
"It is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins" (Heb. 10:4).
There was forgiveness of sins under the OT law.
You are a funny person.
So intent on breaking the Calvinist position that everything else is forsaken.
Romans 4 tells us:
"What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness." -Rom. 4: 1-3 (KJV)
Abraham was counted as "righteous" because of his faith, not his "works".
DeaconDean said:IF his works made him "righteous", he would have something to boast about that nobody else did.
DeaconDean said:Secondly, the "Torah" did not exist in Abraham's lifetime, Galatians 3:17 tells us that the Law came some 430 years later.
DeaconDean said:AS far as Lk. 1:6 is concerned, we also read:
"Luke 1:6
And they were both righteous before God
Not as the Pharisees, only righteous before men, but in the sight of God, who sees the heart, and whose judgment is according to truth; and therefore were not justified by the deeds of the law; for by them no man can be justified in the sight of God; but were made righteous through the righteousness of Christ, by which the saints were made righteous before the coming of Christ, as those after it: see ( Acts 15:11 ) ( Revelation 13:8 ) .
Walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord:
this was not the matter of their righteousness before God, but the evidence of it before men: "by the commandments" are meant, all those that are of a moral nature, which regarded their duty to God and man, and which are comprehended in love to both; and by "the ordinances of the Lord", are intended the injunctions and institutions of the ceremonial law, which is called the law of commandments, contained in ordinances, which, though now abolished, were then in force: and it was right and commendable in them to observe them, who, by their "walking" in them, showed they loved them, both one and the other; esteemed them, concerning all things to be right; and had respect to them all, and observed them, and took pleasure in walking in them, which, by the grace of God, they continued to do;
blameless;
not that they were without sin, as none are; and it appears from this chapter that Zacharias was not, see ( Luke 1:20 ) but they were so in the sight of God; as they were justified by the righteousness of Christ, so they were without fault before the throne, and unreproveable before God; and as to their moral and religious character and conduct before men, they did not indulge themselves in any known sin, but lived in all good conscience among men: nor were they remiss and negligent in the discharge of duty: they were not guilty of any notorious breach of the law of God, or of any remarkable negligence in the business of religious observances: and though they might observe enough in them to charge themselves with, and to humble themselves before God and men; yet so strict were they, in their lives and conversations, that those who were the most intimately acquainted with them, had nothing very material to blame them for."
Source
But according t you and your proof text, they found righteousness through the law. Even though it say also says as pointed out above that Gal. 3:11 no man is justified in the sight of God by the law.
And your proof text also corrects Paul who said that if righteousness came by the law, Christ died in vain. (cf Gal. 2:21)
Which also shows us that the scripture contains an error. And if the scripture is in error, then it's worthless. We might as well pick up a copy of Moby Dick and use it.
Sorry, but your wrong.
God Bless
Till all are one.
Never once did I say that. I am, rather taking the position opposite yours that works or even obedience plays no part or is even a condition in our salvation. As you said here:
"And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;" -Heb. 5:9
"In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:" -2 Thess. 1:8
DeaconDean said:In the first place, name one person who has rendered perfect obedience that God/Jesus requires.
I can show from scriptures that your proof text (Heb. 5:9) disqualifies at least two "apostles".
DeaconDean said:Regarding Hebrews 5:9, we read:
"Christ's Purity—He Learned Obedience
But there is one last foundation for our eternal salvation. Christ became the source of eternal salvation, not only because of his dignity and eternity, but also because of his purity. And not just the purity that he brought to his ministry as the Son of God, but purity that he had to forge in the furnace of suffering.
If you ask, Did his divine dignity and his priestly eternity give him automatic purity? the answer is No. It was not automatic. Verse 8 says, "Although He was a Son, He learned obedience from the things which He suffered." This does not mean he moved from being disobedient to being obedient. It means he moved from being untested to being tested and proven. He moved from obeying without any suffering to obeying through unspeakable suffering. It means that the gold of his natural purity was put in the crucible and melted down with white-hot pain, so that he could learn from experience what suffering is and prove that his purity would persevere.
And did this come automatically? No. Verse 7 says that it was prayed for and begged for and cried out for and wept for with tears. This was no fake test of Christ's purity. Everything in the universe hung on this test.
Was it brief? Some take verse 7 to refer only to the battle in Gethsemane when he sweat drops of blood and pleaded with God. I don't think so. Notice the word "days" in verse 7—"In the days of His flesh." Not just a night or a day, but during all the "days of his humanity" he was wrestling and praying and begging and crying out and weeping. It was not brief. It was a lifetime of warfare against sin.
And when verse 7b says that he was praying and crying "to the One able to save Him from death," does that mean that he was mainly praying for deliverance from physical death? Was that the main aim of his praying in the days of his flesh? I don't think so, because verse 7 says "he was heard." I think that means God gave him what he asked for, and verse 8 describes the effect of that answered prayer: he learned obedience. Jesus was praying for obedience—for persevering purity.
In other words, Jesus knew that there was a death worse than death. Much worse. Physical death is bad enough and he desired that there be another way to do the Father's will than to die on the cross. But far more horrible than dying on the cross was the impurity of unbelief and disobedience. That was the great and horrible threat. So he prayed all his life against that, and he was heard by his Father and, instead of caving in to sin, he learned obedience from what he suffered.
He became a source of eternal salvation because of his dignity as the Son of God and his eternity in the priesthood of Melchizedek and his purity in the crucible of incredible suffering.
Do You Have This Eternal Salvation?
Which leaves one last question: Do you have this eternal salvation? Not everyone does. Verse 9 tells us who does: "And having been made perfect, He became to all those who obey Him the source of eternal salvation." Those who are obeying Christ have the eternal salvation that he obtained for us. Are you obeying Christ? Or are you living in disobedience to his will?
One thing is very clear from Hebrews: the will of Christ that has to be obeyed is first and foremost the command to trust him, to hold fast to our hope (3:6), to guard against a heart of unbelief (3:12), to hold fast to our confession (4:14), and to draw near to Christ for help (4:16). In other words, the first and main act of obedience is to believe in the promises of God (3:18–19) and to hope in him. All other obedience, according to Hebrews, is the fruit of this first and root act of obedience (10:34; 11:8, 24–26; 13:5–6, 13–14). So daily acts of practical obedience are the evidence of this first obedient act of saving faith.
Source
DeaconDean said:In the second place, I love it when people use eschatological passages to refer to present day Christians.
DaconDean said:In the third place, I am also forced to agree with Martin Luther when he wrote:
"In the first place it is flatly against St. Paul and all the rest of Scripture in ascribing justification to works 2:24). It says that Abraham was justified by his works when he offered his son Isaac (2:20); Though in Romans 4:22-22 St. Paul teaches to the contrary that Abraham was justified apart from works, by his faith alone, before he had offered his son, and proves it by Moses in Genesis 15:6. Although it would be possible to "save" the epistle by a gloss giving a correct explanation of justification here ascribed to works, it is impossible to deny that it does refer to Moses' words in Genesis 15 (which speaks not of Abraham's works but of his faith, just as Paul makes plain in Romans 4) to Abraham's works."
Source
Have you ever studies what it means to "righteous" and "justified"?
"This word draws directly from the Hebrew word “tsadag” (tsaw-dak). Which is rendered in the OT as “justify”, “righteous”, “just”, “justice”, “cleansed”, “cleanse ourselves”, “righteousness”.
Looking at the word in the LXX, it is a “forensic” term. Yet in the LXX, the predominate usage does not carry a negative meaning as some Greek usage: (w QemistokleeV, en toisi agwsi oi proexanistamenoi rapizontai. o de apoluomenoV efh oi de ge egkataleipomenoi ou stefanountai.) but is constantly used in the most positive sense of “to pronounce righteous,” “to justify”, “to vindicate”. The forensic element is even stronger in the Masoretic text in that the Masoretic Isa. 42:25 is rendered as they find righteousness with Yahweh, and in the LXX it is rendered that they are declared righteous by him (apo kuriou dikaiw qhsoutai).
A fact that most seen to overlook at are the differences between what Paul is quoting from, and what James quotes, rather, bases their statements on. Paul uses Gen. 15:6 as his basis in Romans 4, and James uses Gen. 22:1-19 for his basis. Abraham was seventy-five years old when he believed God in Genesis 15. However, Abraham was 100 years old when Isaac was born. (cf. Gen. 22:6) Tradition has it that Isaac was around twenty-five when Abraham took him to the mountain for the sacrifice. If the Catholics and Arminians are correct, then it logically means that Abraham had to wait fifty years in order to actually be justified! No! We merely point out that the offering of his son, gave evidence to Abraham’s faith in God.
Professing to be a Christian when one is not may secure a standing before men, it may improve his moral and social prestige, he may be able to join a church, and help promote his commercial interests, but can it save him? What is the use to fein to be charitable when works of charity are withheld? What good does it bring to calling oneself a Christian when empty stomachs are met with good words? How can a person claim to be a Christian and clothe the naked by good wishes? What does it profit to profess to be a believer when there is no true piety?
Neither can a person be saved by a mere empty hollow confession of the Gospel. To say that I am a Christian and am unable to appeal to any good works and spiritual fruits as proof of it, profits neither the person nor those who listen. Without the essential element of “faith worketh by love” (cf. Gal. 5:6), no matter how much reading or studying, no amount of head knowledge, no amount of preaching and teaching one can do, they are no more than “sounding brass and tinkling symbol.” Without love, those professors will be the ones pleading their works but will be told: “Depart, I never knew ye.”
So…we conclude that “works,” as far as justification is concerned, plays no part. We are indeed justified by faith alone, in Christ alone.
Martin Luther wrote in his preface to James and Jude: “James does nothing more than drive a man to the Law and its works.” And this is apparent in some faiths teachings. However, Luther also admits that James wanted to guard against those who relied on faith exclusively but wasn’t quite up to the task.
During the first century, it is commonly held that James was the bishop of the church in Jerusalem. And Paul was a missionary. History dictates that during the early church, two viewpoints developed early on. Paul is well known for his battles with “legalists.” They were the type who said faith in God was correct, but what was also required was a submission to the “Law.”
Luther also was quick to point out that James called the “Law” a “perfect law of liberty.” (cf. Jas. 1:25) Paul viewed it as a Law that brings slavery, (Gal. 5:3) wrath, (Rom. 4:15) sin, (Rom. 7:7) and death (Rom. 7:10).
When men are turned away from their own self-efforts, the next step is to run in the complete opposite direction. If they cannot trust in their own self-righteousness, if they cannot be justified by their own works, then it is just a minor shift to reject works of any kind, and there is no such thing as ungodly living or ungodly practice. This is the door which leads down the path to antinomianism. They turn the grace of God into lasciviousness. (Jude 1:4) And this is very apparent in what it was spreading during the early church.
It has been argued that Paul and James are not contradictory, but rather, complimentary. This can be seen by the statements by these men in that Paul says you are justified by faith, verse James’ teaching that you are justified by works and not by faith alone. Arthur W. Pink wrote:
“Unless the subject and scope of James’ Epistle be clearly seen, the apprehension of many of its statements can only issue in God-dishonoring, grace-repudiating, soul-destroying error. To this portion of the Word of God, more than any other, have legalists appealed in their opposition to the grand truth of justification by grace, through faith, without works. To the declarations of this Epistle have they turned to find support for their Christ-insulting, man-exalting, Gospel-repudiating error of justification by human works. Merit-mongers of all descriptions cite James 2 for the purpose of setting aside all that is taught elsewhere in Scripture on the subject of justification. Romanists, and their half-brothers the Arminians, quote "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only" (v. 24), and suppose that ends all argument.”
Three times in Romans 4, the preposition “eiV” (ice) is used. In verse 5: “his faith is counted “eiV = for” righteousness.” In verse 9: “faith was reckoned to him “eiV = for” righteousness. In verse 22: “it was imputed to him “eiV = for” righteousness.” In each of these verses, the preposition “eiV” never means “in the stead of”, but signifies “towards, in order to, with a view to”, and in rare circumstances, it can mean “because of.” It has a uniform usage as “into” or “unto.” The clearest meaning in this passage of scriptures is found in verse 10: “with the heart man believeth unto “eiV” righteousness”: that the believing heart reaches out towards and lays hold of Christ Himself. This passage (cf. Rom. 10:10) may help us to understand what justification by faith is, for it shows that righteousness there comes to us when we embrace God’s goodness offered to us in the Gospel. We are then, for this reason, made just: because we believe that God’s propitious to us through Christ. (Calvin)
The Holy Spirit meant what He related to the Apostles as they wrote the New Testament. And some words were chosen with precision. Another preposition that merits note is “anti.” “Anti” as used in the Greek means: “over against; hence, in correspondence to, answering to, in place of, in retribution or return for, in consideration of, on account of.” This is important as it helps us make our point. It is important in that righteousness is never imputed to us “on account of” faith. Righteousness is never imputed to us “because of” faith. Righteousness is never imputed to us “in consideration of” faith. Righteousness is never imputed to us “in correspondence to” faith. Righteousness is never imputed to us “in answering to” faith. And most importantly, righteousness is never imputed to us “in place of” faith or perfect obedience.
Some may argue that the texts agree with Darby’s position. Does it say that Abraham’s faith was account for righteousness? To answer that, we point to what King David said: “Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean.” Are we to believe that hyssop, a worthless shrub, has the kind of fitness to stand in the place of the sacrificial blood, and make an atonement for? It has no more fitness as faith to stand in the place of Christ’s perfect obedience, to act as our justifying righteousness, or to procure our acceptance with God.
DeaconDean said:In Genesis 15:6 we read: “And he believed in the Lord; and He counted it to him for righteousness.” Now, was it Abraham’s faith itself which was in God’s account taken for righteousness (Darby’s assumption). Or, was it the righteousness of God in Christ which Abraham’s faith laid hold of? Abraham’s faith was nothing more and nothing less than the renunciation of all virtue and strength in himself, and placing a child-like trust upon God for what He was willing and able to do. This is very far from his faith being a mere substitute for a righteousness which he lacked. Even further was God’s accepting Abraham’s faith “in place of” a perfect obedience to His Law. Rather was Abraham’s faith the acting of a soul which found its life, its hope, its all in the Lord Himself. And that is what “justifying” faith is, it is “simply the instrument by which Christ and His righteousness are received in order to justification.” It is emptiness filled with Christ’s fullness; impotency lying down upon Christ’s strength.” (J.L. Girardeau)"
The Doctrine of Justification, Restated and Reviewed, By DeaconDean
Righteous and justified go hand in hand.
"Our Greek word has its root in the Greek word “dikh”. This word means “right”, “justice”; in the NT, judicial punishment, vengeance; 2 Thes. 1:9; Jude 7; sentence of punishment, judgment, Acts 25:15; personified, the goddess of justice or vengeance, Nemesis, Paena, Acts 28:4."
Ibid
If our salvation was dependent on our "obedience" as you say, not a single one of us, the apostles included, would be saved.
God Bless
Till all are one.
Again, who has argued that God requires perfect, flawless, sinlessness for one to be saved?Also, one more footnote.
In Genesis 22:8, Abraham is walking Isaac towards the mount to sacrifice.
Abraham says:
"My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together." -Gen. 22:8 (KJV)
There 16 different names for God.
In this passage, one name for God is used here and nowhere else.
Jehovah-Jireh. (God will provide)
It is used only in Genesis 22:14 the spot where the sacrifice was to occur.
Which means, although Abraham was doing as he was told, it was his faith in God that God (Jehovah-Jireh) would provide a ram for sacrifice.
That is why Paul refers to Abraham as the father of faith. (cf. Rom. 3:27-4:25)
But, even faith cannot produce "perfect" obedience.
The great preacher Charles H. Spurgeon preached:
"Next, obedience should be exact. Even Abraham's obedience failed somewhat in this at first; for he started at once from Ur of the Chaldees, but he only went as far as Haran, and there he stayed till his father died; and then the precept came to him again, and he set off for the land which the Lord had promised to show him. If any of you have only half obeyed, I pray that you may take heed of this, and do all that the Lord commands, carefully endeavouring to keep back no part of the revenue of obedience."
Source
God Bless
Till all are one.
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