we are all sinners?!

[nathan_k]

We are all sinners but Jesus died for our sins. I dont understand Why jesus had to die. God makes the rules so why couldnt he just say " OK just repent and serve me then you can go to hevean" why was it nessesary for him to have Jesus come to earth and die? My understanding is that before christ people had to make animal sacrifices to enter the kingdom of God. If God knew what the world would eventually turn to wouldnt it make more sense to have the same way to get to hevean always the same. What about people becoming more sinful made it nessesary for God to change how people enter his kingdom?

 

[Faithful nonbeliever]

None of it makes sense considering god knew what would happen since the beginning. Maybe he figured it would make a better story, who knows. Supposedly, it's because Jesus (god) wanted to sacrifice his son (jesus) (god) to show his love for us. But since Jesus is god, he really didn't sacrifice anything that I can see. Also, if Jesus was separate from god, he knew he'd just be going to heaven for eternity & saving millions of lives so he didn't lose anything. In fact he gained alot. In the end, it makes more sense for god to just snap his fingers, or for that matter, accept us for who we are. That is, the way he made us.

 

[Johnnz]

Nathan_k

The New Testament makes it quite clear that the Old Testament sacrifices were insufficient - they were a token of a persons' restortation of relationship with God only. In contrast, the sacrifice of Jesus dealt with evil at its deepest level by:
1 restoring the broken relationship with God
2 breaking the power of evil within a Christian's life
3. overcoming the final realm of evil - death.

John
NZ

 

[Silent Bob]

I had some issues with this concept as well when I was a Christian.

Firstly define sacrifice.
From wordnet 4 relative meanings.

1. forfeit, forfeiture, sacrifice -- (the act of losing or surrendering something as a penalty for a mistake or fault or failure to perform etc.)
2. sacrifice -- (personnel that are sacrificed (e.g., surrendered or lost in order to gain an objective))
3. sacrifice -- (a loss entailed by giving up or selling something at less than its value; "he had to sell his car at a considerable sacrifice")
4. sacrifice, ritual killing -- (the act of killing (an animal or person) in order to propitiate a deity)

Now 3 is irrelevant with religion so only 1, 2 and 4 are to be considered when talking about Jesus.

Now from 1 in order for there to be sacrifice something is to be lost or surrendered. Since Jesus was man and God and God is eternal then the only thing that was lost with the crucifixion was Jesus' human life. However the loss was temporary since 3 days later He returned from the dead. Surely knowing the future since He is a God and thus all-knowing a three day death doesn't hold the same value as it holds for us. In fact most humans with a bit of curiosity would welcome the chance to die and come back in three days. It is an interesting logical contradiction that Jesus' sacrifice holds a significant meaning only when one accepts Jesus to be only man and not a God.

From 2 comes an interesting concept. Jesus is the sacrifice needed from Christianity to offer support and strength to the message conveyed by it.

What comes from 4 is the classic atheist/non-Christian argument of: "God sent Himself to be sacrificed to Himself so that He would forgive mankind for eating an apple."

P.S. These are just questions I didn't have the chance to ask when I was a Christian. I have no interest to debate, convert or be converted so keep the answers logical and any emotional responses private. Thx.

 

[slayer-2004]

I dont see why god had to make the rule that sin must be punished by death . Why not just forgive the humans without having to take random innocent lives ? Why not just give humans a consience and a mind that makes humans feel bad when they sin instead of having to make them kill some animal that never did anything wrong ?

...wait a minute...

 

[Murmur]

Hmmm... I think you're onto something, Slayer...

 

[Vi]

ah, there's that free will thing again. God could MAKE us anything.

Sometimes we still see things as being separate, HEaven is UP THERE and earth is DOWN HERE and Hell is DOWN THERE. Well, God is IN US. And here's a confusing statment... we are made perfect by Christ's sacrifice. ha, go figure that one.

I think death is a natural consequence here, not God saying it's His chosen punishment. And death is maybe the death of spirit or the death of loving and being and contributing. We all are naturally prone to sin. Jesus became completely like us, even as far as experiencing being a fetus (think of that next time you debate abortion issues), and He experienced all our human feelings and experiences. He lived perfectly and was an example... now, can we hope to achieve perfection in our life - no probably not... but we can always grow and strive to be like Christ. And Christ is within us so we are able to tap into Him for guidance and direction.

That doesn't really answer your question though. Why did Jesus have to die. Well, think of Him as the Lamb... the perfect sacrifice, the perfect Lamb of God... flawless sacrifice. The new covenant, no more sacrifices, the ultimate one was given. I believe when we are told there is no greater sacrifice than to give ones life for someone... I don't think this means to die for them or to protect them... I believe it is to lay down your life - to live for them, not for yourself. To serve them, not yourself. I think this taps into what Christ did, he served us, gave himself to serve as sacrifice for us, or for all our collective sins. He became our way to salvation, no longer animals, we were given a direct relationship with God to become one with God... like dialing direct now.

 

[Viola_Strange]

I dont see why god had to make the rule that sin must be punished by death . Why not just forgive the humans without having to take random innocent lives ? Why not just give humans a consience and a mind that makes humans feel bad when they sin instead of having to make them kill some animal that never did anything wrong ?

...wait a minute...

I don't know, but old Hebrew Law says that "the only thing that can forgive a sin is blood, and without the shedding of blood, there can be no forgiveness of sins." You know the whole eye for an eye thing. Such a lovely culture, eh? Which is one of the things Jesus spoke out against. Remember, "if you get in a discourse where your opponant strikes your cheek, turn the other also."

As far as the OP, why did Jesus have to die for our sins...I don't see it like that. I don't see Jesus death as Sacrifice, because he was totally against that. I see the whole story of Jesus, ESPECIALLY the Passion, as being more of an EXAMPLE. Yes, he believed that by dying on the cross he was saving humanity, because he knew that such a death would create ripples, and ripples bring followers, and that's just another example of how awesome he was. You don't even need to be a Christian to see that Jesus is a man to be respected, and attain his level. we all have it in us to be able to sit at the right hand of God.

 

[slayer-2004]

yet we are required to believe in him or we burn eternally / suffer emotional torment from being seperated from god / have our soul ripped apart and destroyed ?

Sounds like a sacrifice to me .

And if Jesus is god , and he speaks out against his own teachings in the past , then he has disproved his own infalllibility .

 

[Carico]

We are all sinners but Jesus died for our sins. I dont understand Why jesus had to die. God makes the rules so why couldnt he just say " OK just repent and serve me then you can go to hevean" why was it nessesary for him to have Jesus come to earth and die? My understanding is that before christ people had to make animal sacrifices to enter the kingdom of God. If God knew what the world would eventually turn to wouldnt it make more sense to have the same way to get to hevean always the same. What about people becoming more sinful made it nessesary for God to change how people enter his kingdom?

There are many reasons that Jesus had to die. The first and foremost is that there is no greater love than one who gives his life for another. The second is that man by nature thinks he is good. God had to show man that he is capable of killing an innocent man. Man proved God right. Honest men see their capacity to curse, mock, ridicule, hate, and kill a man like Jesus. They then can admit it and receive God's forgiveness. the ones who do not see this capacity in themselves cannot receive forgiveness. And ironically, they're the ones who call Jesus a liar, mock, ridicule him and dismiss his words as nonsense! Go figure.

 

[larryicr]

Sin must be punished by death because it is serious. Thinking that we can just say "sorry" and that would take care of it, is not understanding fully how utterly terrible sin is.

It also says alot about our worth to God. The worth of something is based on how much one is willing to pay for it. When we see how much God payed for us, it is astonishing.