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We’ve been reading Charles Darwin all wrong

Warden_of_the_Storm

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Again: I'm not an atheist. I'm a deist.

And most atheists do have an explanation for how the universe started: the scientific Big Bang theory. To say that "God did it" is not a scientific answer, it's a religious answer, so of course it's not going to be used in science.

And, once again, this has nothing to do with the OP topic.
 
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Gene2memE

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I'm an atheist, and I have to disagree with this.

I don't have an answer for how the universe started. I don't think atheists do. I don't think anyone does.

I think the Big Bang Theory is the best explanation for the existence of our current local presentation of space time. However, I'm not certain that we have any explanation of what lit the metaphorical touchpaper and got things started. I'm not even certain that notions like 'started' or linear causality even make any rational sense in the pre-Planck epoch.

I'll take 'I don't know' as the best answer to how the universe started, because I don't feel rationally justified in any other explanation.
 
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Warden_of_the_Storm

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I might change that to 'most atheists' then.
 
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FredVB

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Understood, you are not. But then there should not be argument against God's involvement. That God is not involved is not shown. As a believer I see in scriptures God's involvement is shown. Nothing known really changes that.
 
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Warden_of_the_Storm

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Understood, you are not. But then there should not be argument against God's involvement. That God is not involved is not shown. As a believer I see in scriptures God's involvement is shown. Nothing known really changes that.

And you're welcome to say that. But science doesn't because science only studies the natural, and since God is super natural, thus existing outside of the natural world, He cannot be studied and His involvement in everything can only be taken on faith not evidence.

And, once again: THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE OP TOPIC!
 
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Ophiolite

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I don't know if it's true, but I once heard that the only degree Darwin possessed was in theology.
That is correct, but your question suggests you think that might somehow devalue his scientific work. Or perhaps you just found it surprising. A decade or so ago, on another forum, a member challenged the contribution of Darwin in large part because his degree was in theology. The following was my response. (The last two paragraphs addressed his additional argument that Wallace was more important than Darwin in the history of evolutionary theory.)

Creationists, pseudo scientists and others claiming a knowledge of and interest in evolution sometimes assert that Darwin was not educated as a scientist. Their implication is that, as a consequence, his theory of evolution by natural selection must be flawed. That foolish misapplication of logic is best ignored, leaving us to deal directly with the claim concerning his education.

1. The majority of naturalists in England in Darwin's time were ministers of the church. It was expected that one of the sons of any well to do family would acquire a living. These typically afforded much free time and these reverends indulged the Victorian interest in nature. (While Darwin's father intended he become a doctor, like himself and his brother, Darwin's distaste for the idea forced the alternative on him.)

2. From his childhood he was absorbed in nature. ("I was a born naturalist.") He collected specimens (wildlife collection was a Victorian passion) and avidly read nature books.

3. Darwin's degree may have been in theology, but while at Cambridge he was exposed to the logically constructed writing of Paley (Natural Theology) and the penetrating logic of Whewell (Bridgewater Treatises). He was also taught botany by Professor J. S. Henslow, who was a cleric, and geology by Adam Sedgwick, who was a cleric. Being a cleric was almost a requirement for being a naturalist at that time!

4. "Darwin's letters and biographical notes give the impression that in Cambridge he devoted more time to collecting beetles, discussing geology and botany with his professors and hunting and riding with similarly inclined friends, than to his prescribed studies." (Ernst Mayr, in One Long Argument Harvard University Press 1991)

5. "..when Darwin had completed his Cambridge years he was an accomplished young naturalist." (ibid.)

6. He then embarked on the Beagle for a voyage lasting five years, where he was exposed to more opportunities for research than many a Ph.D. student, opportunities which he seized and made full use of, as evidenced by the specimens he collected, the learned reports he wrote, and the novel concepts he brought to geology and biology.

7. You rightly praise Wallace, but who was it in all of England, in the entire world, that Wallace chose to share his new hypothesis with? Who did he seek out as the one naturalist who could best evaluate its worth? Darwin. If Wallace was so enthused by Darwin, why are you so against him?

8. Wallace himself said this "[Darwin's early works] great as each of them is separately, and, taken altogether, amazing as the production of one man, sink into insignificance as compared with the vast body of research and of thought of which the Origin of Species is the brief epitome, and with which alone the name of Darwin is associated by the mass of educated men." (Natural Selection and Tropical Nature", London 1883.)
 
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AV1611VET

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That is correct, but your question suggests you think that might somehow devalue his scientific work.

Methinks academia was so desperate to have a "Father of Evolution," they picked Darwin, because his work is so convincing.

If you disagree, then answer me this:

If Darwin hadn't been selected as "The Father of Evolution," then who would have been?
 
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Ophiolite

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Methinks academia was so desperate to have a "Father of Evolution," they picked Darwin, because his work is so convincing.

If you disagree, then answer me this:

If Darwin hadn't been selected as "The Father of Evolution," then who would have been?
If you start from a false premise all that follows is likely to pre-fossilised coprolite. Such is the case here. Try methinking with more clarity in future.
 
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BCP1928

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Methinks academia was so desperate to have a "Father of Evolution," they picked Darwin, because his work is so convincing.

If you disagree, then answer me this:

If Darwin hadn't been selected as "The Father of Evolution," then who would have been?
Probably Wallace, but who cares? Being considered "Father of..." Is usually the result of a new insight into a problem which leads to successful results--even if the individual does not greatly further the work on that insight himself.
 
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AV1611VET

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Probably Wallace, but who cares? Being considered "Father of..." Is usually the result of a new insight into a problem which leads to successful results--even if the individual does not greatly further the work on that insight himself.

Fair enough.
 
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Gene2memE

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Methinks academia was so desperate to have a "Father of Evolution," they picked Darwin, because his work is so convincing.

Darwin was picked not only because his work was convincing, but the extent and depth to which he developed the idea of natural selection as well as the synthesis between his ideas and those of other parts of 'natural science/history'.

Following the initial publication of Origin of Species, Darwin went to work with publications covering sexual selection, mutual selection, heredity and the role natural selection has in ecology (both being shaped, and shaping it) and eventually human evolution.

And, he revised Origin of Species continually, updating it with new information and modifying parts that were shown to be less than wholly correct. I think there were at least six editions, maybe 8?

If you disagree, then answer me this:

If Darwin hadn't been selected as "The Father of Evolution," then who would have been?

Alfred Russel Wallace most likely. Maybe Gregor Mendel.

Other possibilities include Charles Wells, who hit upon elements of of natural selection 40 or 50 years before Darwin. However, he didn't publish his work beyond an essay with the Royal Society and it didn't get widespread attention. Wells had a conception of natural selection applying to humans, which rubbed up against religious beliefs of the period and likely contributed to the failure to gain traction (Darwin deliberately omitted references to selection applying to humans in Origin of Species because of fear of controversey leading to rejection of the idea, he ultimately waited ~15 years to finalise and then publish The Descent of Man and then The Expression of the Emotions in Man and Animals dealing with human evolution).

Patrick Matthew is another candidate. He did publish a concept of natural selection ~25 years before Darwin & Wallace. However, he was perhaps a little under-developed with the ideas and his audience wasn't as receptive/perceptive of the implications. Plus, Mathew's conception and natural selection was still bundled up with various strains of natural theology and so he refused to consider a general application and lumped it with limitations.

Edward Blyth also seems to have been close to a similar realisation as Darwin & Wallace and at a similar time. But, wasn't interested in the development of new species, but rather the rewilding of species to their natural state unaffected by artificial selection. His approach was also even more deeply rooted in natural theology-style beliefs than Matthew and he had the double misfortune of being based in Asia (and therefore out of the scientific limelight [rather like AR Wallace]).


Or maybe, there would be no sungle 'Father of Evolution'.
 
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The Barbarian

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The article is wrong about Darwin's first use of the term "evolution." It was in On the Origin of Species, 1859 edition, at least. Just once as far as I remember. Last sentence of the book.

There is grandeur in this view of life, with its several powers, having been originally breathed into a few forms or into one; and that, whilst this planet has gone cycling on according to the fixed law of gravity, from so simple a beginning endless forms most beautiful and most wonderful have been, and are being, evolved.

but it does offer an introduction to what later became known as Social Darwinism, or eugenics.
Darwin actually derided the whole point of eugenics in The Descent of Man.

The aid which we feel impelled to give to the helpless is mainly an incidental result of the instinct of sympathy, which was originally acquired as part of the social instincts, but subsequently rendered, in the manner previously indicated, more tender and more widely diffused. Nor could we check our sympathy, even at the urging of hard reason, without deterioration in the noblest part of our nature. The surgeon may harden himself whilst performing an operation, for he knows that he is acting for the good of his patient; but if we were intentionally to neglect the weak and helpless, it could only be for a contingent benefit, with an overwhelming present evil.

 
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The Barbarian

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Or maybe, there would be no sungle 'Father of Evolution'
You might as well ask about the "Father of Mechanics." Newton would come up, but there were many before him. Indeed Newton himself (who no one ever accused of having a small ego) wrote "if I have seen further [than others], it is by standing on the shoulders of giants."
 
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Buzzard3

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Atheists have not turned Darwinism into a religion
Atheists have turned the theory of evolution into a religion ... and never weary in their heroic zeal to spread the gospel that their beloved theory is also a fact.

The problem with their alleged "fact" is that no one can even demonstrate that the history of life on earth is the result of a natural process, let claim to know what that process was.
 
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public hermit

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The problem with their alleged "fact" is that no one can even demonstrate that the history of life on earth is the result of a natural process, let claim to know what that process was.

Can you demonstrate that life is the result of supernatural processes? If so, what is the process?
 
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Larniavc

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For many people today, Darwin has become a sort of secular deity, an icon for atheism.
Only Christians think this because of their inability to imagine that people manage quite well without believing in God.
 
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Warden_of_the_Storm

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Only Christians think this because of their inability to imagine that people manage quite well without believing in God.

And it's a very American thing too, which brings to mind a lot of thinking of general Anglo-American rivalries that are very one-sided.
 
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AV1611VET

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Only Christians think this because of their inability to imagine that people manage quite well without believing in God.

Yup -- that's why they have CCTVs all over the place, isn't it?
 
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AV1611VET

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