Wayne Bent / Michael Travesser

ricker said:

You are, of course, right. I remember a lot of what I would consider heretical theology and outright legalism being taught in my days in academy and college. I just haven't heard it from the pulpit the last few times I have fellowshipped with them. I went many, many years without stepping in an Adventist church before recently. Not to compare SDA's with them, but I imagine Hari Krishnas were/are welcoming too.......

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If SDAism has changed, we will see public steps toward change. Certain fundamental beliefs will be cast aside. Public apologies will be made. The gospel will be consistently preached. Until then, it is difficult for me to conclude that SDAism has changed (although individual congregations may be moving toward the gospel).

BFA

RC_NewProtestants said:

Have you incorrectly represented SDAism by your generalizations? Of course that it is why generalizations are often fallacious.

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I noticed that you never said that I had misrepresented SDAism.

Do your statements resemble other Christian groups...certainly.

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Without question. And I have the same concerns about those other groups. In fact, I would suggest that red flags should be waving when one finds any of the 5 characteristics I listed in the church they're attending.

SDA's are not the only people who think they are the remnant.

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Sadly, you are correct about that. Thankfully, there are countless churches and denominations who make no such claim.

You find that in practically every denomination.

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This statement reveals the level of your knowledge of what is happening outside of SDAism.

Do most organizations have leaders that they hold in special respect.

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Thankfully, few claim to have a modern prophet.

Then again most all Christians from Biblical times on have sought character development.

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Thankfully, few have made claims that character development is required in order to maintain salvation through the end of time.

It is easy to understand how someone who does not think anyone has free will will think that character development is designed to get salvation but that is a problem with your presuppositions.

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Your statement reveals your lack of understanding of my position regarding calvinism vs. arminianism, and that isn't the topic of this thread.

Again most denominations think they have special message to deliver.

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I believe that most denominations sense that the gospel is the special message that they have to deliver. Contrast that with a denomination whose special message is the law.

Why else would someone like you be here?

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To present the gospel of Jesus Christ (and, BTW, the "someone like you" comment was a bit humorous).

So the problem with you list is that it does not apply itself equally, it is a rant against one segment of religion. Which is something anyone can do to any religious tradition or denomination.

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Is it true or false that SDAism holds in common with its splinter groups the five characteristics that I listed? Call it a rant if you wish, but it's nonetheless true.

Tell us what your denomination is and I can show you how easy it is to do what you did with your list.

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I am not the member of a denomination. My wife and I attend an evangelical free church.

BFA

Well I wonn't demonstrate who I could make a list about your church though I could easily get abundant material from such websites as: http://www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/Psychology/efca.htm

It all depends upon one's presuppositions and assumptions. But you are free to have them whether they are true or not just as the above website has them whether they are true or not.

RC_NewProtestants said:

Well I wonn't demonstrate who I could make a list about your church though I could easily get abundant material from such websites as: http://www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/Psychology/efca.htm

It all depends upon one's presuppositions and assumptions. But you are free to have them whether they are true or not just as the above website has them whether they are true or not.

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I have been very direct in asking for evidence that the five statements I offered were inaccurate. If you believe that they are not accurate, please demonstrate why you believe they are inaccurate.

Thanks,
BFA

Test message. Please delete.

RC_NewProtestants said:

Well I wonn't demonstrate who I could make a list about your church though I could easily get abundant material from such websites as: http://www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/Psychology/efca.htm

It all depends upon one's presuppositions and assumptions. But you are free to have them whether they are true or not just as the above website has them whether they are true or not.

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BTW, I happen to share the concerns about the current move toward "self help" that is rampant in many congregations, including a number of SDA congregations. You certainly won't find me disagreeing on that point!

BFA

RC_NewProtestants said:

Well I wonn't demonstrate who I could make a list about your church though I could easily get abundant material from such websites as: http://www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/Psychology/efca.htm

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Your point eludes us.

RC_NewProtestants said:

Well I wonn't demonstrate who I could make a list about your church though I could easily get abundant material from such websites as: http://www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/Psychology/efca.htm

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Test message, ignore this.

With all due respect, the author of these articles seems pretty confused. Without having read the whole thing, Moriah notes right away that he subscribes to the fallacy that believers cannot be demon possessed (excuse us, but yes it most certainly CAN and DOES happen) and if you follow the link to his article denouncing that you will see why. Apparently he has bought into the typical slanderous lies that having a certain affliction has something to do with how much the afflicted one has sinned. Many people buy into this nonsense unfortunately, and the more that do, the less the chance that anyone so afflicted will find someone truly compassionate to help them navigate the road to freedom.

Being overtaken by demonic forces has nothing to do with how often a person commits sins, the specific sins a person commits, or anything else having to do with one's personal individual sins, unless we bes talking about specific cases in which people have deliberately offered themselves up to be vessels of residence (e.g. via dark rituals and dark worship) for reasons of their own (and even in such cases, focusing entirely on that would itself be misleading, as opposed to focusing on the factors in the person's life leading up to those activities and prompting them). Being overtaken by demonic forces has NOTHING to do with saying "the devil made me do it", blaming someone else for one's problems, having a "victim mentality", or seeking a scapegoat for deviant behaviors. No one genuinely experiencing or undergoing being taken "hostage" even remotely thinks in these terms; rather they tend to be scared, confused, baffled, and desperate for solutions, eager for anything that might put a stop to terrifying things happening to them and inside them over which they have no control, cannot assert control, and which seem to be systematically dismantling their faith, destroying their hope, and obfuscating their access to God.

No, on the contrary, being overtaken has more to do with how sensitive one bes spiritually to the unseen realms, how vulnerable one has been rendered emotionally and psychologically by a combination of factors in life over which one has NO control and gets NO say (as they all bes imposed from without, such as abuse, rape, trauma, twisted programming from those one has trusted to convey good counsel and guidance, etc.), and whether or not one has been put into a position where strongholds can be formed.

Strongholds, in turn, have nothing to do with sin. People often mistake the term "stronghold" as indicative of some type of addiction to a sinful practice or habit. Nope. A stronghold actually consists of paradigmatic elements and reality constructs themselves and can have NOTHING to do whatsoever with any particular sin. Demonic strongholds get built from reality constructs. It would be an oversimplification to say they get built from lies, though not an untrue statement entirely. Their bricks and mortar (so to speak) go far deeper than mere "lies" in the human sense of telling an untruth. If you can imagine for example the construct of an entire paradigm itself, a reality-construct, a fabricated tapestry seeming in every respect to be real because it bes so artfully woven that every thread in its warp and woof accounts for the presence of the others with incredible precision and answers to some aspect of actual reality with uncanny accuracy -- yet the tapestry itself bes an entire fabrication and woven entirely of falsehoods or rather, twisted half-truths, admixtures of accuracies and errors -- you might begin to comprehend the structural nature of a demonic stronghold. As mentioned in another thread, the absolute firmest and most deadly thereof do not appear to be demonic in nature or "architecture" AT ALL. They appear godly and desirable to those who seek to serve and please the Lord.

Anyone basing their personal theories concerning the causes and concerns of being taken hostage to the forces of darkness (a.k.a. "demon possession") upon the notion that this must of necessity in ANY way, shape, or form have to do primarily with the afflicted person having a level of guilt, involvement in, deliberateness, and/or denial of responsibility concerning, their personal and individual sins, will naturally err in all things concerning this topic. The Pharisees in Jesus' time had similar evil and false "theologies" formulated concerning those what bes sick or poor (and even today some Christians buy into those lies, that people become sick or poor because God punishes them for their sins or as a "consequence" of their sins); Jesus in His ministry constantly sought to overturn these lies and bring to the afflicted peoples the compassion of God.

The most sane way to approach the topic would be to divorce it from these hurtful and fallacious concerns and all superstitious fears surrounding the notion and regard it as simply AN AFFLICTION, just another affliction, like cancer, like diabetes, like blindness, like paralysis, like depression, like schizophrenia, like Alzheimer's, like being raped, like being assaulted, like being taken hostage or prisoner, like suffering from an earthquake or storm or traffic accident. AN AFFLICTION. Nothing more, nothing less, nothing else, and nothing inherently more "sinful" than whatever life you yourselves lead up until you discover you have cancer, or Alzheimer's, or some thug on the street assaults you. The only difference being that this "disease" has its origins in the spirit realm rather than the physical. Therein lies the only difference.

With that in mind we may view Jesus' teaching concerning the nature of affliction, its purpose, and whether or not affliction occurs as the specific result, consequence, or punishment for individual, specific sins, either one's own or those of one's sires:

John 9:1-3
1 And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth.
2 And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?
3 Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.

Now obviously since ALL have sinned, Jesus did not mean to say unequivocally that this man and his parents among all others had never before sinned. We ALL bes sinners, we have ALL sinned. Rather, Jesus bes saying that neither this man's personal and specific sins, nor those of his parents, had anything to do with him being born blind. The reason he bes born blind bes so that the work of God could be made manifest in him. God had planned that this man should experience a wonderful miracle of grace and testify to Him who performed it, and for this reason he bes born blind.

So also it bes with daimonizomai. We bes not forsaken of God. We bes not abandoned by Him and we bes not rejected of Him. God permits this affliction to come upon us so that (a) THROUGH His manifestation of the presence of HIS Holy Spirit visiting upon us, speaking through us at such times as He so elects, and in other ways manifesting His grace, He might make an open show of His power over all sin and evil; (b) through the very affliction making us utterly weak we might find our dependence and trust only and entirely in HIM for our help and hope for freedom; (c) through this very affliction and the weakness in us it creates, His strength might be seen as made PERFECT and thus His grace ALONE as SUFFICIENT for us!; (d) His power might be manifest openly before witnesses when, after having allowed an open demonstration before their eyes of how completely and utterly helpless we bes, how hopelessly and deplorably enslaved, and how degrading the things them that take us do to us and make of us, He easily and openly breaks the chains they have put us in, chases their horrible voices and visions from our minds, restores us to wholeness and sanity, and makes us able to connect with Him.

Our brokenness provides the open spaces through which HIS glory and HIS light and HIS utterly inexpressible mercy and grace may be manifest. The due of humankind to us and all the afflicted for this bes simple: treat us with kindness, gentleness and dignity. We don't expect you to work miracles only God can do; we DO expect to see the fruit of the Spirit just as readily toward us from you as toward the "clean". Have compassion and pray for our release. WE know why we bes here, and we will not accept you turning us into second class citizens of the Kingdom where HE has bidden us to sit at the table's head.

And do not listen to lies printed by those who pretend great knowledge of spiritual matters. Anyone telling you this (or any) affliction only occurs as a result of indulgence in sin or unwillingness to accept one's responsibility for sin bes lying to you, and no truth bes in them.

Test message, please ignore.

RC_NewProtestants said:

Well I wonn't demonstrate who I could make a list about your church though I could easily get abundant material from such websites as: http://www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/Psychology/efca.htm

It all depends upon one's presuppositions and assumptions. But you are free to have them whether they are true or not just as the above website has them whether they are true or not.

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Test message, ignore.

Adventist can't eat jello either?

What's up with that?

Are they worried about being to heavy to meet the Lord in the air or is this a biblcal thing?

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I think it's a Kosher thing. If a Jew won't eat it certain SDA's will not touch it either. I knew of a kid in school when I was around 14 who would not eat a Hostess fruit pie because he thought there was 'pig' in it.

Pythons said:

I think it's a Kosher thing. If a Jew won't eat it certain SDA's will not touch it either. I knew of a kid in school when I was around 14 who would not eat a Hostess fruit pie because he thought there was 'pig' in it.

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I knew people who were pigs who ate Hostess fruit pies. Is that the same thing?

LOL! That was a good one. I've always believed if after you turn 15 you walk out of the store with one of those in your hand you've got problems. For some reason it just wasn't "cool" to be seen eating one of those after 7th grade. It was a thing of shame.

Pythons said:

I think it's a Kosher thing. If a Jew won't eat it certain SDA's will not touch it either. I knew of a kid in school when I was around 14 who would not eat a Hostess fruit pie because he thought there was 'pig' in it.

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That bes because they bes made with LARD.
EWWW!!! GROSS!!!!
PIG FAT!!!!!

k4c said:

I knew people who were pigs who ate Hostess fruit pies. Is that the same thing?

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Pythons said:

LOL! That was a good one. I've always believed if after you turn 15 you walk out of the store with one of those in your hand you've got problems. For some reason it just wasn't "cool" to be seen eating one of those after 7th grade. It was a thing of shame.

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BWAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!! *ROFL*

After 6th grade, you mean!!!!

Byfaithalone1 said:

I have been very direct in asking for evidence that the five statements I offered were inaccurate. If you believe that they are not accurate, please demonstrate why you believe they are inaccurate.

Thanks,
BFA

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You simply believe them true because of your presuppositions. Just like the author of that ECFA article has presuppositions that psychology is evil. For example you say that the SDAism says that salvation is through character development. You can draw that conclusion from some of the TSDA who teach last generation perfection but it is not a position of the SDA church (in fact I am pretty sure that even they would deny your statement as representative of their belief). Now I can deny that it is and you can say that it is, but your statements were generalization with nothing but your presuppositions for support (which means no support). Your reply then is "show where the list of presuppositions is inaccurate". What is the point of arguing against your presuppositions, you already hold them as correct and you present them without evidence. I have already gone over this kind of thing with you where you ignore evidence in favor or your presupposition.

By the way if salvation was by character development the thief on the cross could not be saved being that he died that day.

RC_NewProtestants said:

You simply believe them true because of your presuppositions.

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I believe the things I wrote are true because I was an SDA for 3+ decades; I worked for its conferences; I served as its elder; I taught its sabbath school classes; and I believed its teachings. Therefore, let's discuss the specific things I wrote, and you explain why you believe them to be untrue.

I wrote that "SDAism and its splinter groups fear the persecution of others who would prevent them from practicing their beliefs." You have, no doubt, heard of Jan Marcusson and his book, The National Sunday Law.

I wrote that "SDAism and its splinter groups believe that God has granted them a divinely appointed Spiritual leader who possesses unique prophetic gifts." You are, no doubt, aware of fundamental belief #18.

I wrote that "SDAism and its splinter groups believe they have the remnant message that all persons need to hear in order to fully understand the gospel of Jesus Christ and in order to either obtain or maintain salvation." You are, no doubt, aware of fundamental belief #13.

Just like the author of that ECFA article has presuppositions that psychology is evil.

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I don't believe that psychology is evil, but I share the author's concern about the types of pop psychology that are sometimes presented in the pulpits of some churches.

For example you say that the SDAism says that salvation is through character development. You can draw that conclusion from some of the TSDA who teach last generation perfection but it is not a position of the SDA church (in fact I am pretty sure that even they would deny your statement as representative of their belief).

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SDAism has never renounced its claim that the writings of Ellen G. White are authoritative. Mrs. White clearly writes that nothing short of perfection will meet the mind of God. Further, SDAism teaches that man must reach a state of sinless perfection in order to stand in the sight of a holy God without a mediator. Although I certainly agree that there are individual SDAs who have rejected this teaching, they have done so in direct opposition to the teachings of their denomination (for which I applaud them).

Now I can deny that it is and you can say that it is, but your statements were generalization with nothing but your presuppositions for support (which means no support).

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Do you deny that the SDA denomination's continuing and authoritative source of truth wrote the following:

• The gospel that is to be preached to all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people presents the truth in clear lines, showing that obedience is the condition of gaining eternal life
• You will come up from the grave with the same disposition you manifested in your home and in society.
• Jesus does not change the character at His coming.
• Our daily lives are determining our destiny.
• What we make of ourselves in probationary time, that we must remain to all eternity.
• The coming of Christ does not change our characters
• Only by perfect obedience to the requirements of God's holy law can man be justified
• When the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord, then the sins of the repentant soul who received the grace of Christ and has overcome through the blood of the Lamb, will be removed from the records of heaven, and will be placed upon Satan
• Not one of us will ever receive the seal of God while our characters have one spot or stain upon them.
• It is left with us to remedy the defects in our characters, to cleanse the soul temple of every defilement
• Everything depends on the right action of the will
• No man can cover his soul with the garments of Christ's righteousness while practicing known sins
• God gives the talents, the powers of the mind; we form the character. It is formed by hard stern battles with self.
• The blood of Christ, while it was to release the repentant sinner from the condemnation of the law, was not to cancel sin
• Now while our great High Priest is making atonement for us, we should seek to become perfect in Christ
• Instead of coming to the earth at the termination of the 2300 days in 1844, Christ then entered the most holy place of the heavenly sanctuary to perform the closing work of atonement preparatory to His coming
• The work of regeneration must go on in every soul until perfection of character is reached; for nothing short of this will meet the mind of God
• Those who are living upon the earth when the intercession of Christ shall cease in the sanctuary above are to stand in the sight of a holy God without a mediator
• And you that have not sanctified your souls by obeying the truth, do you expect that Christ at His appearing will make you ready? There will then be no atoning blood to wash away the stains of sins
• Your only safety is in coming to Christ, and ceasing from sin this very moment.
• If we regard iniquity in our hearts, if we cling to any known sin, the Lord will not hear us.
• God requires of all His subjects obedience, entire obedience to all His commandments. He demands now as ever perfect righteousness as the only title to heaven.
• Christ is our hope and our refuge. His righteousness is imputed only to the obedient.
• God requires at this time just what He required of the holy pair in Eden—perfect obedience to His requirements.
• Redemption in Christ means to cease the transgression of the law of God and to be free from every sin
• When the character of Christ shall be perfectly reproduced in His people, then He will come to claim them as His own
• In order to let Jesus into our hearts, we must stop sinning
• To be redeemed means to cease from sin
• Every impurity of thought, every lustful passion, separates the soul from God, for Christ can never put His robe of righteousness upon a sinner to hide his deformity
• The Lord clearly defined obedience as the way to the City of God

By the way if salvation was by character development the thief on the cross could not be saved being that he died that day.

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Perhaps you might share this tidbit with any SDAs you may know.

BFA