Water into wine

[BGMCFAR]

I have woundered about when Jesus turned the water into wine . Was the wine as we know it or was it grape juice. As a child in the SDA church was always told that it was grape juice. Can anyone tell is there Bibical evidence to indicate what it was. Because somewhere I recall a text in Bible stating that wine is a strong drink and mocker. I could use some help please.

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

BGMCFAR, sure, just read the story itself. Those drinking the wine Christ provided commented to the host of the wedding feast how remarkable they found it that he'd saved his best wine for last. Normally the best gets consumed first, because later people will be too inebriated to properly appreciate it. That should tell you something, as they do not become inebriated by drinking grape juice.

 

[StormyOne]

wine is wine... grape juice is grape juice... either they knew the difference or they did not.... I have always believed it to be wine.... NOT Welch's grape juice...

 

[longhair75]

In biblical times, it was impossible for grape juice to be consumed other than right after the grapes were harvested and pressed into juice. Once the grapes are squeezed, the juice either ferments into wine or spoils in a few days. Israel in 4 BC had no mass refrigeration.** Wide spread distribution and consumption of non-alcoholic grape juice did not become feasible until Dr. Welch invented the process by which it could be manufactured and stored.
Cite: meditations

Non-alcoholic grape juice was not available until 1869 when it was invented by Dr. Thomas Welch. (It's called Welch's Grape Juice for a reason.) Welch was a teetotaller who objected to taking communion with wine and who wanted a non-alcoholic alternative. So after experimentation he succeeded in developing what he called "unfermented wine." Even then it was not called grape juice, that name coming into use when his son took over marketing in 1875.

**line shamelessly stolen and paraphrased from Andrew Lloyd Weber

 

[RC_NewProtestants]

In biblical times, it was impossible for grape juice to be consumed other than right after the grapes were harvested and pressed into juice. Once the grapes are squeezed, the juice either ferments into wine or spoils in a few days. Israel in 4 BC had no mass refrigeration.** Wide spread distribution and consumption of non-alcoholic grape juice did not become feasible until Dr. Welch invented the process by which it could be manufactured and stored.
Cite: meditations


**line shamelessly stolen and paraphrased from Andrew Lloyd Weber

Interestingly enough Dr. Sam Bacchiocchi in his book wine in the Bible does show that there were a few methods of obtaining grape juice out of season. The problem with those techniques aside from the one where it is basically the juice from soaked raisins, which hardly anyone would say was too good, is that they would cost an enormous amount of money to obtain. So yes the extremely wealthy could do it for the novelty of it but it had no practical application.

I point this out because if you make such statements to certain Adventists as Longhair they will simply disregard them or throw them back at you as if you don't know anything. Because his statement is from a practical application true but for everything practical there is something impractical as an exception.

The story of water into wine is most probably fermented wine but then again the Bible never condemns wine only the misuse of wine.

 

[longhair75]

Friend RC,

I point this out because if you make such statements to certain Adventists as Longhair they will simply disregard them or throw them back at you as if you don't know anything. Because his statement is from a practical application true but for everything practical there is something impractical as an exception.

I do understand this, and I am not offended is someone discounts my statement. Dr. Bacchiocchi is correct that there were a few methods by which grape juice could be stored for the short term. Another was to boil it down to a kind of thin jelly which could be remixed with water. This was a short term method due to the lack of refrigeration. Grape juice, pre pasturization and subjection to the process invented by Dr. Welch, either fermented naturally or spoiled very rapidly.

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

The whole "every time they mention wine in the Bible it really means grape juice" argument bes just fracking silly. If you want to be a teetotaler, do it for your own ethical and moral reasons, but stop judging your brothers and sisters for what they eat and drink (Romans 14) and above all, stop blaspheming the Word of God by claiming it means something it does not just to make your argument or your opinion seem more weighty and authoritative. Moriah sure bes not impressed with that tapestry of spin and frankly, it believes, neither bes God.

The ONLY prohibition on alcohol in the Bible bes against DRUNKENNESS specifically. Nowhere in Scripture bes alcohol itself totally prohibited. Cautioned about? Of course, like anything potentially dangerous to our health or spiritual well being. But prohibited? Sorry, nope, not in scripture. Not without utterly choking levels of man-made embellishments piled on to make it seem so.

 

[moicherie]

The church dropped the wine equal grape juice belief I remember it being mentioned in a Sabbath school quarterly where it was admitted wine in the bible was wine nothing more and nothing less. Tho some pastor still spout the tradition line. I blame the Adventist pioneers for using a lie or they were just ignorant to promote a health preference.

 

[SoldierOfTheKing]

Really? That's surprising. What reason to they have then to retain a pledge of abstinence as a requirement for baptism?

 

[Sophia7]

The church dropped the wine equal grape juice belief I remember it being mentioned in a Sabbath school quarterly where it was admitted wine in the bible was wine nothing more and nothing less. Tho some pastor still spout the tradition line. I blame the Adventist pioneers for using a lie or they were just ignorant to promote a health preference.

The church will never ever officially change its mind on that, not as long as they uphold EGW as a prophet because she said that the wine that Jesus produced was unfermented grape juice. I'm sure they put some spin on any admission that they made in a SS lesson.

 

[.chrys.]

In biblical times, it was impossible for grape juice to be consumed other than right after the grapes were harvested and pressed into juice. Once the grapes are squeezed, the juice either ferments into wine or spoils in a few days. Israel in 4 BC had no mass refrigeration.** Wide spread distribution and consumption of non-alcoholic grape juice did not become feasible until Dr. Welch invented the process by which it could be manufactured and stored.
Cite: meditations


**line shamelessly stolen and paraphrased from Andrew Lloyd Weber

As far as I can figure, in Biblical times it was impossible for water to be changed into wine save for a miracle. Since the drink in question is one of which was given by miracle, is there any reason to differentiate between what was scientifically possible and what was not?

At any rate, the miracle was one of symbolism and whether it be fermented wine or unfermented, the message was clear: Jesus came to transform water (baptism by water; law; old covenant) into wine (baptism by the Holy Spirit; new covenant; salvation through the body and blood of Christ).

 

[longhair75]

Friend ConstantWitness,

As far as I can figure, in Biblical times it was impossible for water to be changed into wine save for a miracle. Since the drink in question is one of which was given by miracle, is there any reason to differentiate between what was scientifically possible and what was not?

The drink is not in question. There is no support for the drink being anything other than wine. I am no Bible scholar, but I have never read a Bible that said that Jesus change the water into fresh grape juice.

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

The drink is not in question. There is no support for the drink being anything other than wine. I am no Bible scholar, but I have never read a Bible that said that Jesus change the water into fresh grape juice.

Yeah, you know they made that up just to sell us peanut butter and corn flakes. ADMIT IT!!!!!!!!!

 

[.chrys.]

Friend ConstantWitness,


The drink is not in question. There is no support for the drink being anything other than wine. I am no Bible scholar, but I have never read a Bible that said that Jesus change the water into fresh grape juice.

Sorry. I guess I read the OP wrong. I'll go back to my corner of the world...

 

[moicherie]

The church will never ever officially change its mind on that, not as long as they uphold EGW as a prophet because she said that the wine that Jesus produced was unfermented grape juice. I'm sure they put some spin on any admission that they made in a SS lesson.

The church is in this quandry because they insist on putting all her writings on a pedestal without considering the historical and cultural context. Some of her writings won't apply to 21st century lifestyles e.g not buying a bicycle, being against mixed race marriages (ironically if the church officially promoted this they would be in the same boat as the KKK today and could be taken to court for racial discrimination in the U.K)

 

[Sophia7]

The church is in this quandry because they insist on putting all her writings on a pedestal without considering the historical and cultural context. Some of her writings won't apply to 21st century lifestyles e.g not buying a bicycle, being against mixed race marriages (ironically if the church officially promoted this they would be in the same boat as the KKK today and could be taken to court for racial discrimination in the U.K)

That's true. I think they should drop the FB about accepting her as "a continuing and authoritative source of truth" altogether, but I know that's not going to happen.

 

[moicherie]

That's true. I think they should drop the FB about accepting her as "a continuing and authoritative source of truth" altogether, but I know that's not going to happen.

Thats cos she is "a continuing and authoritative source of" £££$$$€€€€

 

[BGMCFAR]

I THANK YOU ALL FOR YOUR INPUT INTO THIS THREAD AND i HAVE TO AGREE WITH A NUMBER OF YOU. i NOW BELIEVE IT WAS WINEAS WE KNOW IT AND LIKE ANYTHING USED IN MODERATION CAN BE HEALTHY, . bUT IT MAKES ME WOUNDER WHAT OTHER DECEPTIONS WE WERE UNDER IN THE ADVENTIST CHURCH .

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

Sorry. I guess I read the OP wrong. I'll go back to my corner of the world...

Awwww c'mere.

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

Thats cos she is "a continuing and authoritative source of" £££$$$€€€€

And now she bes a continuing albatross around the collective SDA neck, it seems.