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Water baptism

Discussion in 'Christian Scriptures' started by Richard Mulcahy, Sep 25, 2020.

  1. Richard Mulcahy

    Richard Mulcahy Active Member Supporter

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    Water baptism - please see this short video.

    As someone who believes they have been baptised by fire through the Holy Sprit I feel that I do not need to be baptised in water.

    Do you agree with the speaker in the video?

    Your thoughts and views and feedback is much appreciated.

    God bless...

     
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  2. ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

    ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) <><

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    Why would God baptize you with fire of the Holy Spirit if you've never stepped out in obedience to water baptism?
     
  3. savedthroughgrace

    savedthroughgrace Member

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    well as the gentleman mentioned in the beginning, why wouldn't you want to be baptized as we are commanded?
     
  4. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

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    "Baptism by fire" is an expression, of something being compared with Baptism (using water).

    When it is referred to in the New Testament, the passage is not saying that a newcomer to the faith gets a choice to pick one or the other.
     
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  5. savedthroughgrace

    savedthroughgrace Member

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    Let all the house of Israel therefore know for certain that God has made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified.” Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?” And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
    Acts 2:36‭-‬38 ESV
     
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  6. Richard Mulcahy

    Richard Mulcahy Active Member Supporter

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    Hello,
    This is the question - could it be that water batism is not a prerequisite as the speaker in the video says?
    I believe I have been in the spirit and been baptized with fire.
    My journey with the Lord has been a long one. I have a wonderful relationship with Him and God has blessed me in countless ways...
    May I ask why you say water baptism is an instruction if you like?
     
  7. Richard Mulcahy

    Richard Mulcahy Active Member Supporter

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    Hi,
    I didn't say I don't want to be baptized in water I was just wondering whether like they say in other videos that it is a false doctrine? I.e. that water baptism is required in order to be saved.
     
  8. Richard Mulcahy

    Richard Mulcahy Active Member Supporter

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    Hi,
    Would you then be disagreeing with what the speaker said about water baptism not being necessary to be saved?
     
  9. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

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    From everything we know from the New Testament, which does mention baptisms in a number of places, baptism is a prerequisite for "baptism with the Holy Spirit" or a "Baptism of Fire." It's also intended for all believers, unlike these others (although there is some debate over that).

    Why do you think so?

    Several things:
    1. Jesus underwent baptism in the River Jordan at the start of his ministry as a witness or a foreshadowing of the process that applies to all disciples.

    2. Almost the final words of the Gospel of Matthew concern the "Great Commission" by which Jesus sent his Apostles, whom he had commissioned to start the church, to go into the world making converts and "baptizing them!" The two kinds of other "baptisms" do not require a baptizer, so the reference in Matthew has to be to what you called "water baptism."

    3. There are other people baptized in the New Testament and with those we have the start of being a Christian and, also, the use of water. No question about that. One of these new Christians even says, when asking to be baptized, that there is "much water here," referring to an area of shallow pools.
     
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  10. Richard Mulcahy

    Richard Mulcahy Active Member Supporter

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    Hi,
    I was wondering whether the physical act of water baptism is essential in order to be saved?
     
  11. savedthroughgrace

    savedthroughgrace Member

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    oh. Your other messages appear to me that you are defending your desire to avoid water baptism.
    I don't see how it could be false doctrine sense it is listed multiple times as a command/requirement.
     
  12. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

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    But that is a separate issue. No, baptism is not an absolute, no exceptions, requirement for salvation. However, when we say that we are referring to rare exceptions such as a conversion on one's deathbed or someone coming to Christ while in a North Korean concentration camp. That sort of thing.

    BUT it does reassure us of being forgiven our sins, confers God's grace for our daily walk in the Lord, and officially marks us as members of Christ's Church. Some people would add that it complies with the command of Christ that all believers be baptized.
     
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  13. savedthroughgrace

    savedthroughgrace Member

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    Not outright disagreeing. It is between the Lord and each individual whether or not one will enter heaven....however, I feel that as Christians we should be excited to do anything we can to obey Christ and receive his gift. Often times we look for the bare minimum to be safe from smoke and fire. People generally ask "is it a sin to...." and "can I get to heaven if I do/don't do..." because as humans we want to have heaven without doing anything to show we accept that gift.
     
  14. Richard Mulcahy

    Richard Mulcahy Active Member Supporter

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    I believe I have been baptised with the Holy Spirit for various reasons.
    I regularly feel the presence of the Holy Spirit.
    I have witnessed countless wonderful miraculous experiences.
    One night in my room I felt the Spirit and when I looked at the ceiling I saw energy fields and felt a mild but intense heat.
    I had been wondering about being baptized by fire a few weeks earlier and put my worry before God.
    I believe it was a sign as confirmation that I am baptized in the Holy Spirit.
    I read the bible from beginning to end in 2003 and prayed to God that I might see miraculous signs and wonders. Well since 2003 I have been very blessed and seen many wonderful things.
    From transfiguration and x-ray vision briefly to seeing the spirit of an eagle in the cloud to hearing voices like peeling thunder and rushing water to being saved from imminent death etc... the list is long.
     
  15. Francis Drake

    Francis Drake Returning adventurer.

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    I find it surprising that nobody has referred to the obvious scripture which gives a great parallel.
    Acts 10. The story of Cornelius, read it from v1, but here's the nub,

    44While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. 45And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. 46For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God.

    Then Peter answered, 47“Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?” 48And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then they asked him to stay a few days.


    So Cornelius, already a God fearing long time believer, met up with Peter and the disciples, was baptised with the Holy Spirit and fire, and shortly afterwards was baptised in water.

    But note, Cornelius was already in close communion with the Lord which already assured his eternal destiny.
    So his eternal salvation was not determined on his fire baptism or water baptism, but it was an act of obedience.
     
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  16. Richard Mulcahy

    Richard Mulcahy Active Member Supporter

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    Hi,
    Just read Acts 10. Thank you so much for your reply.
     
  17. dqhall

    dqhall Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I agree baptism is not more important than faith, yet I could not speak a word against the Christian tradition of water baptism.

    Remember Jesus was obedient to God in going to get baptized by John the Baptist in the wilderness. As he was being baptized, the Holy Spirit descended like a dove upon Jesus. John the Baptist saw it.
     
  18. ViaCrucis

    ViaCrucis Evangelical Catholic of the Augsburg Confession

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    I think we first need to establish that the phrase "water baptism" is redundant. It's like saying "I took a bath in water", to which one would reasonably wonder, "water as opposed to what?" We bathe in water, we use water to wash ourselves, that's what a bath is. The same is true of baptism, baptism means there's water involved. When Scripture uses baptism in other contexts, such as baptism with the Holy Spirit it is treating it as an analogy.

    It comes from St. John the Baptist who says that he baptizes with a baptism of repentance (in anticipation and expectation of the coming of the Messiah), but that the One who comes after him (the Messiah, that's Jesus) will baptize with the Holy Spirit and with fire.

    Okay, so when does Jesus do this?

    Well let's turn to the first chapter of the Acts of the Apostles,

    "And while staying with them He ordered them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the promise of the Father, which, He said, 'you heard from Me; for John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.'" - Acts of the Apostles 1:4-5

    "He said to them, 'It is not for you to know times and seasons that the Father has fixed by His own authority. But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you will be My witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.'" - Acts of the Apostles 1:7-8

    So here Jesus connects what John the Baptist said, with what Jesus promised--that He and the Father would send the Holy Spirit, another Comforter, the Spirit of Truth, and thus He would not leave His followers as orphans.

    "And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Comforter, to be with you forever, even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him. You know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you." - John 14:16-17

    And the fulfillment of this happens, we read, in the 2nd chapter of the Acts of the Apostles, while they were gathered in the upper room, waiting for what Jesus promised would happen. The Holy Spirit was poured out on them, and they began to speak in the languages of those Jewish pilgrims gathered in Jerusalem. And then St. Peter stood up, filled with the Spirit, and proclaimed that what those pilgrims saw happening was the fulfillment of what had been spoken long ago by the Prophet Joel,

    "And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out My Spirit on all flesh; your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, and your young men shall see visions. Even on the male and female servants in those days I will pour out My Spirit. And I will show wonders in the heavens and on the earth, blood and fire and columns of smoke. The sun shall be turned to darkness, and the moon to blood, before the great and awesome day of the LORD comes. And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved." - Joel 2:28-32a

    So what is the baptism with the Holy Spirit? It's this, the outpouring of the Spirit on all flesh, here being fulfilled on the Day of Pentecost, even as was foretold by the Prophet Joel, by St. John the Baptist, and our Lord Jesus Himself.

    The only other time we see anything like this is when later St. Peter receives a vision, and is then summoned to the household of Cornelius, and then as Peter preached the Gospel the Holy Spirit fell upon the entire house of Cornelius, and we see a repeat of Pentecost. Peter instantly recognizes what this means, that the Gospel isn't for the Jews only, but also for the Gentiles. God repeats Pentecost here for the Gentiles as the sign that the Gentiles are included in the Great Commission. And so Peter has the entire household of Cornelius baptized (that's Baptism, i.e. with water).

    So this baptism with the Holy Spirit, we see in Scripture, is specific. It is not an individual experience, but the outpouring of the Spirit on all flesh, as foretold by the prophets and promised by Jesus.

    But let's go back to Acts 2, what does Peter say to those gathered in Jerusalem?

    "Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, 'Brothers, what shall we do?' And Peter said to them, 'Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to Himself.'" - Acts of the Apostles 2:37-39

    So why receive Baptism? Because it is Christian Baptism, by Christ's authority, even as He said,

    "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age." - Matthew 28:19-20

    This is Christ's command and commission to His Church--to make disciples of all nations, baptizing them.

    So, Peter in Acts ch. 2 follows Christ's own command, and by the power of the Holy Spirit, calls the pilgrims to repentance, and to receive Christian Baptism. And what does this Baptism accomplish, what is it for? It is for the forgiveness of sins.

    Let us take note of what else Scripture teaches us about the meaning and significance of this Holy Baptism,

    "Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? We were buried therefore with Him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life." - Romans 6:3-4

    "For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise." - Galatians 3:27-29

    "In Him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised Him from the dead. And you, who were dead in the trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This He set aside, nailing it to the cross." - Colossians 2:11-14

    "For Christ suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit, in which He went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison, because they formerly did not obey, when God's patience waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water. Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ," - 1 Peter 3:18-21

    But not only these, but see what else the Scriptures teach concerning Holy Baptism,

    "Jesus answered, 'Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.'" - John 3:5-7

    See how Christ attaches the new, spiritual birth to Baptism, speaking of the water of Baptism here. For Nicodemus knew, as a rabbi, that when a person converted to Judaism and went through the ritual washing of the mikveh, they were as born new people--born anew as a Jew. So Christ speaks of what Nicodemus should have already known, though obviously Christian Baptism is another thing, it is not being born anew under the old covenant made through Moses, but the New Covenant established in Christ's own precious blood. This new birth by which we are a new creation.

    St. Paul himself echoes back to here when he writes,

    "But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared, He saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to His own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that being justified by His grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life." - Titus 3:4-7

    Why should you receive Christian Baptism?

    Because here in this water God has connected His precious and holy word, His promises, that here in this water is Christ who has given Himself to us; so that here in this water we die to the world, we die with Christ, we are buried with Christ, and we are made new in Christ. Our sins having been washed clean by His precious blood which He shed for us. And we are born again, as children of God, by His grace. Through this Baptism we are birthed into the life of God which is in Christ by the power of the Spirit.

    Not that this Baptism is a work you do in order to merit bonus points to God, as though you are being obedient and earn anything from Him. Not as though this Baptism is an act of your own obedience which God rewards. But rather, you come to the laver of salvation as a helpless, sinful beggar and wretch, with nothing. You bring nothing, for you have neither gold nor silver, nor clean robes, but only your sin. It is God who washes you clean, for He says, "Though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be white as snow; though they be as crimson, they shall be white as wool." (Isaiah 1:18).

    -CryptoLutheran
     
  19. tturt

    tturt Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Water baptism is not required for salvation.

    There's a doctrine of baptisms,..." (Heb 6:2). There are 3 baptisms:

    1 - By The Holy Spirit into Jesus is the baptism for salvation. Baptized into the body of Christ by believing in His death, burial, and resurrection.
    (Rev 1:5; Matt 26:28; Mark 1:4, 16:16; Luk 3:3; 1 Cor 12:13: Acts 2:38: Gal 3:27, +++) "In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise," Eph 1:13

    Water and Spirit baptism follows - not required for salvation- not in a set order following salvation:
    2 - By another believer (water baptism) (Matt 28:19, Matt 3:16 Philip with the eunuch "...when they were come up out of the water..." Acts 8:39.

    3 - By Jesus with or into The Holy Spirit (The Spirit baptism) Believers already have the Holy Spirit but this baptism endures us with power for service. (Acts 1:5 8: Acts 8:14-17; 10:44-48, Matt 3:11; Mark 1:8, Luke 3:16; Acts 11:16++++)'

    "And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one." I John 5:7-8
     
  20. Richard Mulcahy

    Richard Mulcahy Active Member Supporter

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    Hi everyone,

    Just wanted to say thank you for all the replies.

    I have written to the local Baptist Church up the road from where I live.

    I am hoping they will be able to baptise me but I'm not sure when given the current pandemic.

    God bless you...
     
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