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Water Baptism

Discussion in 'Non-denominational' started by Hervey, Jan 14, 2002.

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  1. Hervey

    Hervey Member

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    rkbo

    Sir, Acts 10:47 is not talking about water baptism !

    "Can any man "forbid" water" -- is a question !

    Can you "stop" water flowing down a river with your hands ? The word "forbid" means to "stop". Can you forbid water from falling out of the sky ? Can you forbid water by building a dam ?

    No to all of these, and that is what Peter meant by the statement !

    Cornelius and his family were the "first" gentiles to receive the "baptism" of the holy spirit. And Peter was making this comment to the "Jews" who were with him. They were "baptized" in the name of the Lord - verse 48.

    They were "Not" baptized with water !

    Love IN Christ - Hervey
     
  2. pokey

    pokey New Member

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    I know that - that was my point. You do not have to be baptized to be saved. I do believe it is a necessary step AFTER you have received Christ into your heart....we are to be Christ like and do as Christ did - follow his example. He was baptized....also, it is an outward expression of our "new" life in Christ. The Lord says to confess Him - I look at baptism not only as receiving a new life in Christ, but confessing Him to men.
     
  3. Hervey

    Hervey Member

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    Hi Pokey:

    I disagree Pokey ! Water baptism is not necessary at all !

    If "doing" everything that Christ did, is important, then ask your local law to hang you on a cross (tree).

    I want to make a point here, that you do not "do" everything that Jesus Christ did.

    Jesus Christ was beaten for out sakes, but that does not mean that you should "ask" to be beaten.

    He was wiped, and had a crown of thornes put on his head.

    Do you want to wear a crown of thorns on your head ?

    Water baptism was a "fulfilling" of the Law. As I explained alread, it was called "water cleansing" in the OT law.

    Love IN Christ - HErvey
     
  4. pokey

    pokey New Member

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    I am participating in another forum like this one on this same topic. I found these verses....

    Matthew 20:23 "So He (Jesus) said to them, "You will indeed drink My cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with ; but to sit on My right hand and on My left is not Mine to give, but it is for those for whom it is prepared by My Father."

    Acts 2:38 "Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."

    Acts 10:47-48 ""Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?" And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then they asked him to stay a few days."

    Acts 22:16 "And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord.'"

    Galatians 3:27-28 "For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus."

    Also, I know we don't DO everything Christ did....I am not that silly. What I meant by that is that we are to live life as Christ lived His life. Treat others the way Christ treated others, follow His lead. WWJD.....
     
  5. Hervey

    Hervey Member

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    Hi Pokey:

    Words -- Baptized - Baptism

    Matthew 20:23 "So He (Jesus) said to them, "You will indeed drink My cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with ; but to sit on My right hand and on My left is not Mine to give, but it is for those for whom it is prepared by My Father."

    Ask yourself - What "baptism " was he "baptized " with ?

    A) - Water

    or

    B) - Holy Spirit

    Again !

    Acts 1:5 - Jesus speaking - "For John truly baptized with water ; but ye shall be "baptized with the Holy Spirit " not many days hence"

    Lets add these verses to the conversation >

    John 1:32 - "And John bare record , saying , I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him"

    John 1:33 - "And I knew him not : but he that sent me to baptize with water , the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him , the same is he which "baptzeth " with the Holy Spirit"

    John "Baptized " with water, but the "baptism " which Christ received , was the "baptism " of the Holy Spirit.

    Love IN Christ - HErvey
     
  6. pokey

    pokey New Member

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    I understand. But, he was baptized in water to receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit....was he not?

    It really isn't a point I am going to "argue" over. I have been baptized which is what I felt the Holy Spirit led me to do - which is the entire point anyway. We are to do what He tells us to do - not what WE think is correct.
     
  7. Hervey

    Hervey Member

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    Hi Pokey:

    Yes, he was baptized with and in water. But water cleansing was a part of the Law, which Christ fulfilled. Christ also fulfilled the law of circumcision, and on the eighth day he was circumcised.

    Have you read the book of Galatians lately ? Do part of the law, are now a "debtor" to do all of the law.

    Why would the Holy Spirit lead you to be water baptized and not be lead to do the rest of the law ? It doesn't make any sense, does it ?

    Love IN Christ - Hervey
     
  8. pokey

    pokey New Member

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    What exactly are you referring to when you say "the law"? I think this is where I am gettin confused.
     
  9. Hervey

    Hervey Member

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    Hi Pokey:

    I will try to help you understand what I mean by the "Law".

    Israel in the OT, was under the Law of Moses, also called the Law of God.

    There were many "laws" that they were "under", and those laws were a type of "bondage".

    Circumcision was one of the "laws of God" - "Laws of Moses" in the OT.

    Another one was "water cleansing" (go back to my first post for an explanation)

    Jesus Christ died for out sins, but he also "fulfilled" the Law of God - Law of Moses.

    There were certain things clean and unclean, and some of those things that were unclean were to be washed in water. The washing of these things in water, according to the Law, made them clean.

    Jesus Christ fulfilled "all" the Law including circumcision, and water cleansing.

    John baptized with water, which was a "doing" of the OT law of Moses - Law of God, of "water cleansing". John was told to baptize with water (John 1:33), so that the Law of Moses - Law of God , could be "fulfilled".

    Jesus Christ was the "end" of the "Law" for righteousness, to everyone who believes" - Romans 10:4

    Now is when one should read the book of Galatians, especially chapter 5.

    Love IN Christ - Hervey
     
  10. pokey

    pokey New Member

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    I will read Galatians 5 and come back if I have more questions....thanks.
     
  11. rkbo

    rkbo Member

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    Well Hervey I was hoping we were going to see eye to eye but alas I was wrong. Sorry about this but Hervey you have a classic case of eisegesis going on here. You most definatly are reading into the text what you want it to say. We have to let the author of the text set the tone and context. we have to let the author reveal his intended thought and not read more or less into it.

    Hervey you said:

    "Can any man "forbid" water" -- is a question !

    Can you "stop" water flowing down a river with your hands ? The word "forbid" means to "stop". Can you forbid water from falling out of the sky ? Can you forbid water by building a dam ?

    No to all of these, and that is what Peter meant by the statement !
    ____________________________________________________
    Hervey what had happened was that these folks recieved the Holy Spirit. They proved it by the gifts they manifested. Now this business of "can any man forbid water" is connected to "that these should not be baptized" Hervey you can't realy believe what you are trying to make the rest of us swallow, can you? I believe the Living Bible says it best.
    Acts 10:46
    46 But there could be no doubt about it, for they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God. Peter asked, "Can anyone object to my baptizing them, now that they have received the Holy Spirit just as we did?"
    (TLB)

    I did find some more support and think this needs posting
    Acts 10:47

    [Water] [to (grk 3588) hudoor (grk 5204)]. Note the article: "the" water; coordinating the water with the Spirit (see <1 John 5:8>), and designating water as the recognized and customary element of baptism.
    (from Vincent's Word Studies of the New Testament)
    Acts 10:47

    [Can any man forbid the water?] [Meeti (grk 3385) to (grk 3588) hudoor (grk 5204) dunatai (grk 1410) koolusai (grk 2967) tis (grk 5100)?)]. The negative [meeti] (grk 3385) expects the no answer. The evidence was indisputable that these Gentiles were converted and so were entitled to be baptized. See the similar idiom in <Luke 6:39>. Note the article with "water." Here the baptism of the Holy Spirit had preceded the baptism of water <Acts 1:5; 11:16>. "The greater had been bestowed; could the lesser be withheld?" (Knowling).
    (from Robertson's Word Pictures in the New Testament)
    Acts 10:46-48

    The gift of tongues was given on this occasion that there might be no doubt whatsoever that God had given to the Gentiles the same gift he had bestowed upon Jewish believers. 47,48. Peter at once recognized that the Gentiles should be brought into the fellowship of the church, and he therefore commanded that Cornelius and his family be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Baptism in water followed baptism in the Spirit. Peter did not immediately return to Jerusalem but remained with Cornelius for some time, probably instructing him in the things of the Lord.
    (from Wycliffe Commentary)
    Acts 10:46

    [Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized.] This is a sort of challenge thrown out to his own six Jewish brethren, who might be supposed to object to the recognition of their Gentile brethren without circumcision. A great principle is here expressed. He does not say, `Having received the Spirit, what need have they of water! ' But, `Having received the supernatural seal of real discipleship, who can refuse them the visible token of it! '
    (from Jamieson, Fausset, and Brown Commentary)


    Hervey let's get real here and admit you are wrong about this. How that for putting you on the spot.
     
  12. Nikolai

    Nikolai New Member

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    :confused: Hervey, I have read lots of your posts, and I agree with all the stuff you posted about the Law shuts up faith, and that trying to be justified by the Law alienates us from the grace of Christ. But read Acts Chapter 8 and Hebrews Chapters 6,7,8. I think that might explain lots of stuff. If you are confused as to what I mean e-mail at [email protected] Acts refers to Baptism of Water and Hebrews refers to tithing in a sense. Have fun!

    Matt
     
  13. Hishandmaiden

    Hishandmaiden The Humble Servant Supporter

    +168
    Christian
    Private
    .Argh, I am not good at the bible verse. But I do remember that Jesus said in one of the verse,
    "For I had not come to dismiss the law, but rather to fulfill them."
    Meaning, we must still follow the law. That is why Jesus was baptised.
     
  14. Hervey

    Hervey Member

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    Hey there rkbo, how are you doing on this wonderful day in the Lord ?

    One of my pleasures in life, spiritual pleasures, is that of loving the brethren with doctrine, reproof, and correction. which is instruction in "righteousness".

    In the unity of the Spirit, there is only "one" baptism - Ephesians 4:5. Yet, the Word of God shows us three.

    #1 - baptized unto Moses
    #2 - John's baptism
    #3 - Baptized into Christ's death and resurrection, baptized in his name, and to receive the baptism of the gift of holy spirit, "as" Christ did.

    You can only have "one" --- Which "one" do you choose ?

    Moses is dead !

    John is dead !

    Christ liveth !

    When the day of pentecost was fully come - they the apostles - disciples - 'received' the gift of "holy spirit" upon them and they spoke in tongues.

    Prior to Acts 10:47 & 48 was verses - 34 - 46

    Verse 44 - "While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Spirit (holy spirit - gift) fell upon them (as it did with the apostles on the day of pentecost)( Peter's words in verse 47 - "that these should not be baptized , which "have" ( past tense - verse 44 ) received the Holy Spirit -- "as well as we") which heard the word"

    Peter was talking about the day in which himself and the other apostles received the Holy Spirit, which was the day of pentecost. He was "Not" talking about a day in which he was water baptized ! !

    Verse 45 - "And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished , as many as came with Peter , because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the holy spirit"

    This verse tells us that the Jew's who came with Peter , were having a hard time believing that the "gentiles" - "also" had received the "baptism" of the gift of holy spirit. That is because this was the very "first" time that a "Gentile" received into manifestation the baptism of holy spirit, because in times past God only dealt with the Jews only !

    Verse 46 - "For they heard them speak with tongues , and magnify God. Then answered Peter" --- While the Jew's were still astonished that they also received the "baptism" of the "holy spirit".

    Then comes verse 47 - Can any man stop water, that these should not be baptized as we were when we received the gift of holy spirit also ?

    What was Peter's command ?

    Verse 48 - "And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord"

    Did Peter command them to be water baptized, with "John's baptism" ? ? ?

    Do you not remember the words of the Lord Jesus Christ just before he ascened up into heaven ?

    Acts 1:5 - "For John truly baptized with water " ; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit"

    These "gentiles" had (past tense) been baptized "with" the Holy Spirit, and there was "no need" of John's baptism , because they were "already baptized before Acts 10:47 ! !

    Love IN Christ - Hervey
     
  15. rkbo

    rkbo Member

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    Hey Hervey: Hope you are doing as well as I am. I will only respond to the last thing you said.

    These "gentiles" had (past tense) been baptized "with" the Holy Spirit, and there was "no need" of John's baptism , because they were "already baptized before Acts 10:47 ! !
    ___________________________________________________

    I agree they were baptized with the Holy Spirit and this does prove that salvation does not come from water baptism.

    The ordinance of water baptism is not necessary for salvation. It is a means of identifying with Christ in an outward show. It is saying to all that see that you are a Christian. This verse in Acts 10:47 is indeed talking about water baptism and is saying that just because they are gentiles doesn't mean they shouldn't be water baptized like we were.

    Hervey look......
    Acts 8:38
    38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.
    (KJV)

    Water baptism was a thing to do. Now what say you of this
    John 4:1
    1 When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John,
    (KJV)

    Are you saying that Jesus baptized with Johns baptism? No, Johns baptism was unto repentance. So was Jesus's. Do we now have 4 baptisms?

    Hervey do you have something against those that participate in this ordinance as a practice of identification, only.
     
  16. hagiadzo1999

    hagiadzo1999 New Member

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    Well this has been an interesting debate!

    I'm going to have to agree with Pokey on this one...

    Also I have a question....Where are you getting that Jesus was baptized with the Holy Spirit? I mean, I guess Jesus is the Holy Spirit (sorta...you know what I mean), but I thought he said the Father would send a Helper after Jesus's death (the Holy Spirit) to be with the believers. (see John 14:15-24)

    I always understood this to mean Jesus wasn't necessarily baptized in the Holy Spirit, because He IS the Holy Spirit.

    I think that water baptism is simply a public confession of one's acceptance of Christ as their Lord and Saviour. It is symbolic of the washing away of our sins by the blood of Jesus on the cross.

    ~N~
    <><
     
  17. Hervey

    Hervey Member

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    rkbo:

    Please read "context" the next time you read your bible !

    John 4:1 - "the Pharisees had heard" -- heard , not seen !

    John 4: 2 which is the "next verse" - ( Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples" )

    Jesus Christ washed the feet of his disciples, thus he "baptized" them - cleansed them by the washing of their feet. < John 13:5

    Jesus also told them to wash one another's feet > John 13:14, so that means that they "baptized" ( washed ) each other.

    This was an act of humilty, and not another baptsim !

    Jesus said in verse 15 , "For I have given you an example, that ye should do as I have done to you"

    The humility to wash another's feet shows love. To love one another is to show humility towards one another.

    Acts 10:47 is a metaphor - "can any man forbid water" = meaning - can a man stop water, as I explained before !

    As you agreed with rkbo, they were already baptized before verse 47. That means there is 'no' need of any other outward sign , than they receiving the gift of holy spirit, and them "speaking in tongues", and "magnify" God. There is no other "sign" needed !

    Verse 47 - Peter's words - "They have received" ---- "They have received" - "the Holy Spirit", "as well as we" <<<<<--------------"They have received" !!

    Verse 48 - And Peter commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord - Jesus Christ. Not with John's baptism , which was with water !

    Acts 8:38 and the "CONTEXT" surrounding this verse "needs" to be read ! !

    Did Philip preach water baptism ? -- Answer - NO !


    Who "asked" to be water baptized ? -- Answer - the unuch

    Did Philip preach Jesus unto the unuch ? -- Answer - Yes - Acts 8:35

    So ask yourself, why did Cornelius in Acts 10 receive the gift of the Holy Spirit and this unuch did not ? -- Answer - Faith.

    His "faith" was still in John's baptism .

    Philip preached "faith" in Jesus Christ - verse 37, and the unuch said he believed that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. Philip told him that if he believed, then he "mayest". Ask youself, "mayest" what ? --- Answer - "Mayest receive into manifestation speaking in tongues and magnifying God as the house of Cornelius did in Acts 10.

    Who commanded the chariot to stop ? -- Answer - the unuch did !

    Ask yourself :

    What Philip did, was it right or wrong to water baptize the unuch ?

    Was it the will of God ?

    After the water baptizing, did the Spirit of God come upon the unuch ?

    What did the Spirit of the Lord do with Philip ?

    Was the unuch happy (rejoicing) that he was water baptized, and received not the gift of holy spirit upon him ?

    Do you speak in tongues and magnify God , because you have received the gift of holy spirit , and are baptized in the name of the Lord ? ?

    Love IN Christ - HErvey
     
  18. rkbo

    rkbo Member

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    Well If these e-terrorist can be ignored I would like to get back to business. Wont give them the satisfaction of stopping lively debate.

    Hervey I stand corrected with Jn 4 in that I should have coupled it with
    John 3:22-23
    22 After these things Jesus and His disciples came into the land of Judea, and there He was spending time with them and baptizing.
    23 John also was baptizing in Aenon near Salim, because there was much water there; and {people} were coming and were being baptized--
    (NAU)

    I should have made this point better. It does seem that Jesus did not baptize but his desciples did. The point I should have made better is that the baptism was one to repentance. This is setting a pattern. Baptism is connected to immersion in water.

    As for the washing of the feet being thrown in here, I do not see your point. No one I know confuses washing of the feet with baptism.

    Now is acts 10:47 a metaphore for "can a man stop water"
    Acts 10:47-48
    47 "Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we {did} can he?"
    48 And he ordered them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to stay on for a few days.
    (NAU)

    The New American Updated doesn't think so.
    Acts 10:47
    47 "Can anyone keep these people from being baptized with water? They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have."
    (NIV)

    The NIV doesn't think so.
    Acts 10:47
    47 "Can any one forbid water for baptizing these people who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?"
    (RSV)

    The Revised Standard Version doesn't think so.
    START PCSB GREEK
    Acts 10:47
    47 Mh/ti to\ u%dwr du/natai kwlu=sai/ ti$ tou= mh\ baptisqh=nai tou/tou$ oi%tine$ to\ pneu=ma to\ a%gion e&labon w($ kai\ h(mei€$;
    (GHB)

    I guess greek doesn't post too well in this forum. Let's see what a greek scholar has to say about this sentence construction and grammatical meaning.
    Acts 10:47

    Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?


    [Water] [to (grk 3588) hudoor (grk 5204)]. Note the article: "the" water; coordinating the water with the Spirit (see <1 John 5:8>), and designating water as the recognized and customary element of baptism.
    (from Vincent's Word Studies of the New Testament)


    Hervey let's get even more technical with
    Acts 10:47

    [Can any man forbid the water?] [Meeti (grk 3385) to (grk 3588) hudoor (grk 5204) dunatai (grk 1410) koolusai (grk 2967) tis (grk 5100)?)]. The negative [meeti] (grk 3385) expects the no answer. The evidence was indisputable that these Gentiles were converted and so were entitled to be baptized. See the similar idiom in <Luke 6:39>. Note the article with "water." Here the baptism of the Holy Spirit had preceded the baptism of water <Acts 1:5; 11:16>. "The greater had been bestowed; could the lesser be withheld?" (Knowling).
     
    [That these should not be baptized] [tou (grk 3588) mee (grk 3361) baptistheenai (grk 907) toutous (grk 5128)]. Ablative case of the articular first aorist passive infinitive of [baptizoo] (grk 907) with the redundant negative after the verb of hindering [koolusai (grk 2967)] and the accusative of general reference [toutous (grk 5128)]. The redundant negative after the verb of hindering is not necessary though often used in ancient Greek and in the Koine (papyri). Without it see <Matt. 19:14; Acts 8:36> and with it see <Luke 4:42; 24:16; Acts 14:18>. Compare Robertson, Grammar, pp. 1061, 1094, 1171. The triple negatives here are a bit confusing to the modern mind [meeti (grk 3385) in the question, koolusai (grk 2967), to hinder or to cut off, mee (grk 3361) with baptistheenai (grk 907)]. Literally, "Can any one cut off the water from the being baptized as to these?" Meyer: "The water is in this animated language conceived as the element offering itself for the baptism."
     
    [As well as we] [hoos (grk 5613) kai (grk 2532) heemeis (grk 2249)]. The argument was conclusive. God had spoken. Note the query of the eunuch to Philip <Acts 8:36>.
    (from Robertson's Word Pictures in the New Testament)

    I hope you can see what is being said here. It is true context that water baptism is being referred too here. I hope you reconsider your position.
     
  19. Hervey

    Hervey Member

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    Hi rkbo:

    Well, did you find which translation fits your beliefs ?

    Or, are you truly interested in this word "forbid" ?

    The reason I ask, is because you failed to work this word, to find out the "expression" that this word is pointing out !

    To "forbid" - means to "stop", or "thoroughly restrain"

    Now look at your different translations, and look at the different wording used to make this verse say what "they" wanted it to say ! !

    Vincent's Word Studies - "added" the article "the" to the verse in order to "change" its original meaning ! I bet you did not notice this, did you rkbo ?

    There is "no" article "the" in this verse !

    The word "forbid" is not being studied by yourself. Instead, your looking for what "others" have done to this verse , to make it say what they want this verse to say , and then that lines up with your beliefs ! That is "Not" the way to work , and study the Word of God ! ! By the way , the NIV stinketh !!

    The verse says !! >> "Can any man forbid (thoroughly restrain ) water" -- Which is saying -- "Can any man "stop" water"

    If the answer to this question ( which it is - a question ) is "no". Then not only can you not stop water, but you can not stop these from being baptized --"Which" -- have received the Holy Spirit as well - "as we". "ON" the day of pentecost, is "WHEN" the disciples "received the Holy Spirit upon them. "ON" the day of pentecost, the disciples were "NOT" water baptized ! Acts 10:47 is talking about the day of pentecost - and that is why Peter used the words "as we " at the end of this verse ! !

    If you keep twisting the scriptures , the way that you do . Someday, you are going to fall into a ditch.

    The disciples were told to baptize (wash) each other. This was talking about the washing of their feet, as Jesus gave example.

    John 3:23 is "John the baptist" - not the apostle John !

    John 3:22 is Jesus baptizing ( washing ) his disciples feet ! They then washed each others feet !

    Love IN Christ - Hervey
     
  20. rkbo

    rkbo Member

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    Well Hervey I see you are being contentious and closed minded and will break this off at this point. I have never been accused of letting others do my thinking for me. I do however give weight to scholars. This is not a bad thing.
     
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