Was Yeshua on Mount Sinai with Moses?

[danny ski]

But , in all seriousness. Maybe we should ask if Shmuel Guttenmorgen was also present? There's probably just as much "evidence" for that as well.

 

[Heber Book List]

The OP is about whether or not Yeshua gave the Ten Words to Moses. Yet, you are trying to goad me into coming against the deity of Christ or the trinity so you can report me. I won't take your evil bait. Go find someone else to deceive with your trickery.

Who are you addressing?

 

[gadar perets]

Who are you addressing?

I was addressing the person I was quoting, AbbaLove.

 

[Hoshiyya]

But , in all seriousness. Maybe we should ask if Shmuel Guttenmorgen was also present? There's probably just as much "evidence" for that as well.

the question is really if one believes in an anthropomorphic god or if one believes in a god that communicates through an intermediary called the word, and separately whether or not the word corresponds to Yeshua, who is frequently called "the word" in the gospels.

 

[visionary]

"THE Word" communicates the Word of God.
"THE express image of God" man has seen and lived.
On Mount Sinai, the WORD was given and "God" was seen. I say, Yeshua was there.

 

[AbbaLove]

"THE Word" communicates the Word of God.
"THE express image of God" man has seen and lived.
On Mount Sinai, the WORD was given and "God" was seen. I say, Yeshua was there.

John 8:56-58 (Yeshua rebuking the Pharisees)
55 Now you have not known Him, but I do know Him; indeed, if I were to say that I don’t know Him, I would be a liar like you! But I do know Him, and I obey his Word.
56 Avraham, your father, was glad that he would see my day; then he saw it and was overjoyed.”
57 “Why, you’re not yet fifty years old,” the Judeans replied, “and you have seen Avraham?”
58 Yeshua said to them, “Yes, indeed! Before Avraham came into being, I AM!”​

 

[gadar perets]

"THE Word" communicates the Word of God.
"THE express image of God" man has seen and lived.
On Mount Sinai, the WORD was given and "God" was seen. I say, Yeshua was there.

You say Yeshua was there because you have no problem reading whatever you want into a text. The text itself does NOT say Yeshua was there. Nor does it say the "WORD" was given. Please provide a verse, referring to the events at Mt. Sinai, that uses "WORD" in all capitals or that uses "word" where it refers to the Son rather than to spoken words.

 

[gadar perets]

John 8:56-58 (Yeshua rebuking the Pharisees)
55 Now you have not known Him, but I do know Him; indeed, if I were to say that I don’t know Him, I would be a liar like you! But I do know Him, and I obey his Word.
56 Avraham, your father, was glad that he would see my day; then he saw it and was overjoyed.”
57 “Why, you’re not yet fifty years old,” the Judeans replied, “and you have seen Avraham?”
58 Yeshua said to them, “Yes, indeed! Before Avraham came into being, I AM!”​

Your bias translation does not say, "Yes, indeed" in Greek. The Greek reads, "amen, amen" and are a prelude to the words that followed just as they are a prelude in all the other NT verses where that phrase is used. They are not an answer to the question in verse 57. Also, if anything, your bias translation should read either "yes, yes" or "indeed, indeed".

In verse 56, Yeshua said Abraham saw "my day" and "saw it". He didn't say he saw Abraham, as the Jews misunderstood him to mean.

Also, your bias translation left out the words, "I say to you" after "amen, amen". Why is that?

Joh 8:58 Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am." NASB​

 

[visionary]

You say Yeshua was there because you have no problem reading whatever you want into a text. The text itself does NOT say Yeshua was there. Nor does it say the "WORD" was given. Please provide a verse, referring to the events at Mt. Sinai, that uses "WORD" in all capitals or that uses "word" where it refers to the Son rather than to spoken words.

I am not saying Yeshua was there because "the Word" or "the word" was there. I am saying Yeshua was there, because He is the voice, the image of God that was there.

 

[gadar perets]

I am not saying Yeshua was there because "the Word" or "the word" was there. I am saying Yeshua was there, because He is the voice, the image of God that was there.

You are ASSUMING "He is the voice" and "the image of God" at that time. Scripture says nothing in the text to support that.

 

[Heber Book List]

I was addressing the person I was quoting, AbbaLove.

We don't see quotes from posters on our block list

 

[AbbaLove]

John 8:58 Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am." NASB

In previous thread Lulav pointed out that 'I AM' (John 8:58) should be all CAPS to represent Yeshua/Immanuel ( How did Abraham see Yeshua/Jesus? ~ #64 ) ...

"But Yeshua doesn't answer with something like, 'Yeah, you're right, but I didn't mean it that way, or something similar. '

But instead he says:

Varily, Verily or Truely,, or 'the honest truth I speak to you'

Before Abraham came into existence...............

I AM

Not

I WAS in EXISTENCE

BUT

I AM

I Exist (not Existed as in past tense)

The Sentence construct is not like when he said:

As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world.

Before Abraham existed, I existed, still existed and will always exist"​

The following Bible verses from John 8 (possibly JUB translation) were selected by Lulav to express her belief and that of other Messianics that 'I AM' is a proper translation ( How did Abraham see Yeshua/Jesus? ~ #1 )

56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
57 Then said the Jews unto him, 'Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?"
58 Jesus said unto them, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I AM."​

Lulav's thread ... Proof Yeshua (Jesus) is YHVH (God) ... also supports this MJ forum's belief that Yeshua/Immanuel is the physical manifestation of GOD Incarnate (non-debatable in this MJ forum).

Shabbat Shalom
​

 

[Hoshiyya]

You say Yeshua was there because you have no problem reading whatever you want into a text. The text itself does NOT say Yeshua was there. Nor does it say the "WORD" was given. Please provide a verse, referring to the events at Mt. Sinai, that uses "WORD" in all capitals or that uses "word" where it refers to the Son rather than to spoken words.

If Yeshua has "inherited" the name or even just appears in his name then he can be called by the name of God, even without being God.

Are you familiar with the Targums?

Whenever God does something anthropomorphic in the Bible the Targums, reflecting the common Jewish interpetation of Scripture, render it as "The Angel of the Lord" and various other terms instead.

Example:

GENESIS 3:8 And they heard the sound of the LORD God [YHWH elohim] walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God among the trees of the garden. (NKJV)

GENESIS 3:8 And they heard the voice of the Word of the Lord God walking in the garden in the repose of the day; and Adam and his wife hid themselves from before the Lord God among the trees of the garden. (Targum Pseudo-Jonathan)​

We know from the New Testament who first-century messianic Jews identified as the Word of the LORD:

JOHN 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

JOHN 1:14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

REVELATION 19:11 Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. 12 His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself. 13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.​

Jewish knowledge of a high-ranking spirit being called the Word (Ara. Memra, Gr. Logos) is well attested at the time of Christ. The Targums use this designation to describe the one who interacted with the patriarchs and the nation of Israel in the wilderness.

 

[visionary]

You are ASSUMING "He is the voice" and "the image of God" at that time. Scripture says nothing in the text to support that.

Knowing Yeshua, who was assigned by God, thus in earning the Kingship of Earth, was dedicated to saving the people of earth, starting with the Jews out of Egypt. It does no good to save them if you are not also re-educating them... hence Mount Sinai meeting.

 

[visionary]

50 days after the night of Passover, Yeshua, King of the Jews, brought His people to Mount Sinai and gave them His commandments, entering a covenant with them. The bridal covenant. This ties into the fact that your redemption is to serve the Lord and your serving of the Lord begins primarily by accepting His ways and living in obedience to Him comes from Yeshua, Lord of Lords.

Jewish tradition is that when God spoke on Mount Sinai in 70 languages for all the world known languages, indicating this is including the whole world. And so now you have this Shavuot and you have these tongues of fire on the Apostles and everyone hears in their own language, and they couldn’t have missed the fact that this is the day that it happened when they were celebrating the giving of the Torah, and here it is just like we had been told it happened at Sinai.

Come on connect the two. Yeshua said wait for He will be sending His Spirit. They had to see that the giving of the Spirit at that Shavuot was a significant event in terms of Israel being a light to the nations. Yeshua is the gospel message. His reign is coming. He will come in His glory. This is His story. From beginning to end, Yeshua has been the redemption story for earth, for Israel, and the plan from the beginning. Yeshua has always been the one intimately involved in the people of earth's redemption. Redemption does not come without the Law or Yeshua our Savior.

 

[Lulav]

ENOUGH!

This thread has gotten way out of hand.
I am disappointed that even on Shabbat
you all can't treat each other better
and with more respect.

We are supposed to be the Light to the world,
but all I see here is worldly darkness.

Would Yeshua be proud of how you
are discussing this, or hand
his head in shame??

This may or may not be reopened as
there are many posts in violation
most of them flaming each other.
​