Was there death before the Fall?

Demetrius B said:

Hello!
I decided to join this forum hoping to find the asnwers nobody has given me yet.
I've been a Christian since 2017 (received water baptism that year, but became a believer earlier), and I was very zealous in my faith several years since then. Until I gradually strated thinking over certain questions and noticing things I had not been noticing before.

For example, the Bible says that the world was created in 6 days - I had no problem with this, until I started thinking about this deeper. In six days? With the creation of the stars on the third day? Even if the stars were created on the first day, the light from them would not have reached the earth up until today (except for the sun's light). I searched a lot of information and explanations about this, and what I found more or less plausible is the theory saying, while only six days passed on earth, millions of years passed in the space/cosmos, because the time flows with different speeds.

But, anyway, that's a whole another topic, I just mentioned it to show you what kind of stuff I pondered about, and today I would like to ask a different question.

I have been okay with the thought that there was no death before the fall at all - not even animal death. But then, when I thought about it deeper, I said, "hey, wait a minute. Do you really think that not any single organism died before the flood, even a germ? Even a mosquito at Adam's shoulder? When Adam and Eve walked around Eden, didn't they occasionally squezze some bugs in the grass to death?"
That made no sense to me. It's impossible that not a single organism could die. Were worms supposed to live forever?
But I found some explanations about this. Some creationist commentators say that there are some so called "non-nephesh animals", like insects. Here's an article I found - God Created Insects - Today's Creation Moment
According to this view, insects did not have the blessing to live forever. Earlier I came across a creationist article which called instects "bio robots"
While I partly agree with this approach, this still creates a problem for me.
If animals (at least cerain categories) died before the Fall, death was in the original plan of God. If death was okay, that violence was okay too. What other purpose than killing and eating flesh was for a shark in God's original plan?
If death and violence was from the beginning, even before the Fall, than God was the author of death and suffering, and the whole creation story and the message of the Bible loses its sence. On the other hand, how was it possible that there would be no death at all for all living organisms, ever (if the Fall hadn't happened)?
That's a great dilemma for me.
The world we live in, with its animal life and how the life functions, just doesn't fit into ideal world God created as depeicted in Genesis 1, and it doesn't matter that the Fall happened. I mean, for the world to be ideal and excluding death altogether, that must have been some very different world with quite a different fauna and laws of life.
I just need to figure it out, and I hope you will help me.

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Platte said:

Yes there was death before Adam and Eve sinned. As you read Genesis you should read it literally (it is the Word of God). According to Genesis the world was created 6000 years ago and God did it in six 24 hour days. Genesis is clear that eating from the Tree of Life is what could prevent you from dying. When Adam sinned he doomed all mankind and brought death to everyone - God no longer allowed you to eat from the Tree of Life.
Your other comment - serpents don’t talk. Agree but a serpent possessed by Satan could talk. The serpent was placed on his belly after sin….before that obviously serpents didn’t crawl on their belly’s as they do today.

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Platte said:

6000 years ago and God did it in six 24 hour days

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• During the very early moments of the universe (around (10^{-36}) seconds after the Big Bang), a rapid expansion known as cosmic inflation occurred. The universe exploded to the size of a galaxy and it all began there.

David Lamb said:

Your first sentence states that there was death before Adam & Eve sinned. Then you say that Genesis should be read literally. So where in Genesis is death before Adam and Eve sinned mentioned? I can't find it

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Diamond7 said:

God created everything in a thousand, thousand thousandth of a second. In the smallest amount of time that the laws of physics will allow. Before that then they use quantum physics to explain what happened and a lot of people have problems with that
Everyone is so involed with the word for day that they ignore everything else. For example what does earth mean? Often it means land, like the land of Eden. The Earth was without form and Void, a term we run into again when Israel was in a state of ruin.

If you want to go literal, wonderful, but apply your literal interpretation to ALL of the words and not just one of them. If you reject science for one word than you have to reject science for all of them and let the Bible interpret the Bible.

• During the very early moments of the universe (around (10^{-36}) seconds after the Big Bang), a rapid expansion known as cosmic inflation occurred. The universe exploded to the size of a galaxy and it all began there.

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Platte said:

So you agree the Bible says the Earth was created 6000 years ago and took six 24 hour days to complete. If you agree that’s what the Bible says then what’s the problem?

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Diamond7 said:

The problem is you refuse to define the word "Earth". In Genesis 1:2 we are told the Earth is void without form. The earth was in a state of ruin. A week later in Genesis 2:1 we read: "Thus the heavens and the earth were finished," The "earth" has been restored. In the KJV they are told to repopulate the earth. As if there were something here before. This is why we have a GAP between Genesis 1:1 and verse 1:2. As we are told a little bit a dqy represents a lot.

Again we see this in Jeremiah talking about Israel. The same situation we see in Genesis 1:2.

Jeremiah 4:23
I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.

People want to look at the word day and ignore the word Earth. They want the Bible to tell them what day means and they want science to tell them what earth means. Use science for both words or use the literal bible but do not cross them up like that. Good luck telling us what earth means just using the Hebrew Bible. Because people say or have said the earth is flat, it has a dome and the sun revolves around the earth.

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Platte said:

Without form and void is a descriptive phrase not a technical one.

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Diamond7 said:

Then the word "day" is descriptive not technical one. You can not pick and choose. You have to be consistent.

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Platte said:

Genesis 2:9 - God planted the Tree of Life for Adam to eat from. That was created before sin….not after.

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Platte said:

Day is a technical term when used in the context of describing a 24 hour period (an evening and a morning).

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Platte said:

without form and void.

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Diamond7 said:

In the Bible, the phrase “without form and void” appears in Genesis 1:2. It describes the initial state of the Earth before God began shaping it into its present form. The words “tohu” and “bohu” (Hebrew for “wasteness” and “emptiness”) convey a sense of chaos and desolation. Essentially, the Earth started as an unformed, chaotic mass that eventually coalesced into the solid world we know today1. This concept highlights the transformative power of God’s creative work, turning chaos into order and beauty. It’s a reminder that God brings purpose and structure even out of what seems shapeless and empty.

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The Barbarian said:

This was because Adam was not created to live forever on this Earth.

That's the problem. In Hebrew, it can mean regular day, "in my time", "always", "forever", etc. But the text itself tells us that it does not mean "normal 24 hour day" in the creation account.

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The Barbarian said:

This was because Adam was not created to live forever on this Earth.

That's the problem. In Hebrew, it can mean regular day, "in my time", "always", "forever", etc. But the text itself tells us that it does not mean "normal 24 hour day" in the creation account.

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Platte said:

he text itself clearly says an evening and a morning to describe the day and highlight what is meant by a day.

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The Barbarian said:

This was because Adam was not created to live forever on this Earth.

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Platte said:

You can think that but that’s not what the Bible says or what Moses described to the Jewish people.

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The Barbarian said:

Since it has mornings and evening before there was a sun to have them, it makes it very clear that these are not literal days.

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Platte said:

I’m not sure what you mean by that or what scripture you are referring to but the Tree of Life was created for Adam to eat on the Earth so that he would continue to live on this Earth.

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