Was there death before the Fall?

Teresa W. said:

Do you have a scripture reference for this?

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The genealogy from Adam to Noah shows that people lived up to 1,000 years. Adam for example lived 970 years. Genesis 5 5

My reference was what we learn from science. Actually forensic science is pretty advanced. They find human remans and investigate it as a murder and then find out the remains are many thousands of years old. Do you watch those detective programs on TV?

Diamond7 said:

Do you watch those detective programs on TV?

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No, not anything like what you mentioned. Haven't watched TV in a couple years since we canceled our cable, only YouTube, Amazon Prime and what's available on our Roku box.

I always kind of thought they aged, but much more slowly.

Demetrius B said:

I have been okay with the thought that there was no death before the fall at all - not even animal death. But then, when I thought about it deeper, I said, "hey, wait a minute. Do you really think that not any single organism died before the flood, even a germ? Even a mosquito at Adam's shoulder? When Adam and Eve walked around Eden, didn't they occasionally squezze some bugs in the grass to death?"
That made no sense to me. It's impossible that not a single organism could die. Were worms supposed to live forever?

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I replied to this thread before. But I'll comment again, with a different approach. ...

They say truth is stranger than fiction. And by that I understand the saying to mean that real life has amazing ways in which something can be true, and one would never have guessed it.

My take on this is that "death" may have a different meaning. God told Adam and Eve about the tree, "you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil; for in the day that you eat of it, you will surely die.” (Gen 2:17) This always bothered me because although Adam did eventually die, he didn't die on that particular day. The serpent (Satan) took advantage of this misunderstanding to imply that God had misspoke, because it was obvious that the snake had been eating, and clearly wasn't dead.

But perhaps it is more like a grapevine that is cut off at the base. The vine is as good as dead but the leaves wouldn't get the news and fall off for quite some time. And likewise, Adam and Eve were as good as dead when they were cut off from God's sustenance, though it would take some time for it to all work out.

So now let's look at the idea that there was no death before the Fall. The support for this is Rom 5:12 -- "Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned" But isn't it quite possible that the "death" spoken of here is the same kind of death that Adam and Eve suffered in that day? I.e. ultimately cut off, but heart is still ticking, cells are still metabolizing, lungs are still breathing?

Words can have different meanings at different times, in the mouths of different people.

Demetrius B said:

The world we live in, with its animal life and how the life functions, just doesn't fit into ideal world God created as depeicted in Genesis 1, and it doesn't matter that the Fall happened. I mean, for the world to be ideal and excluding death altogether, that must have been some very different world with quite a different fauna and laws of life.
I just need to figure it out, and I hope you will help me.

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My take on this is that the depiction of the world in Genesis might be just that, a "depiction", and not the exact truth. If two people go to Disney World, and tell their friends about it, one might get two very different descriptions -- both leaving out vital information. Imagine trying to get together a bundle of words that are not so copious, length, and unwieldy such that they get lost to time, but accurate enough to describe the key elements of the matter. I think it would be difficult. Next consider the game of telephone, where each person gets a message, passes it to their neighbor, and everyone has a good laugh when the ending message is compared the original truth. So I likewise think that the key message of Genesis is that God made everything, mankind rebelled, consequences followed. But details regarding whether the stars were actually created on 4th day of creation, or just did the clouds clear so that the stars were visible, or is the sentence "He also made the stars" just an aside that refers to something done prior to the 4th day -- all these are interesting to think about. But I try not to get too upset when I can't give an exact answer. Honestly, it is often difficult to accurately discover what happened last week, so say nothing about last year, or thousands of years ago. It makes for interesting titles to scientific papers to confidently state what happened a million years ago. Sometimes they can be valid, but other times I'm a bit skeptical.

By the way, I proposed a different possibility for the age of the earth HERE as a variant to Gap theory. I think it is still consistent with what is written in the Bible, but allows for the scientific findings we see in the world around us. But it does require for death of animals etc to be occurring before the Fall.

Best wishes,

Kevin

Demetrius B said:

Hello!
I decided to join this forum hoping to find the asnwers nobody has given me yet.
I've been a Christian since 2017 (received water baptism that year, but became a believer earlier), and I was very zealous in my faith several years since then. Until I gradually strated thinking over certain questions and noticing things I had not been noticing before.

For example, the Bible says that the world was created in 6 days - I had no problem with this, until I started thinking about this deeper. In six days? With the creation of the stars on the third day? Even if the stars were created on the first day, the light from them would not have reached the earth up until today (except for the sun's light). I searched a lot of information and explanations about this, and what I found more or less plausible is the theory saying, while only six days passed on earth, millions of years passed in the space/cosmos, because the time flows with different speeds.

But, anyway, that's a whole another topic, I just mentioned it to show you what kind of stuff I pondered about, and today I would like to ask a different question.

I have been okay with the thought that there was no death before the fall at all - not even animal death. But then, when I thought about it deeper, I said, "hey, wait a minute. Do you really think that not any single organism died before the flood, even a germ? Even a mosquito at Adam's shoulder? When Adam and Eve walked around Eden, didn't they occasionally squezze some bugs in the grass to death?"
That made no sense to me. It's impossible that not a single organism could die. Were worms supposed to live forever?
But I found some explanations about this. Some creationist commentators say that there are some so called "non-nephesh animals", like insects. Here's an article I found - God Created Insects - Today's Creation Moment
According to this view, insects did not have the blessing to live forever. Earlier I came across a creationist article which called instects "bio robots"
While I partly agree with this approach, this still creates a problem for me.
If animals (at least cerain categories) died before the Fall, death was in the original plan of God. If death was okay, that violence was okay too. What other purpose than killing and eating flesh was for a shark in God's original plan?
If death and violence was from the beginning, even before the Fall, than God was the author of death and suffering, and the whole creation story and the message of the Bible loses its sence. On the other hand, how was it possible that there would be no death at all for all living organisms, ever (if the Fall hadn't happened)?
That's a great dilemma for me.
The world we live in, with its animal life and how the life functions, just doesn't fit into ideal world God created as depeicted in Genesis 1, and it doesn't matter that the Fall happened. I mean, for the world to be ideal and excluding death altogether, that must have been some very different world with quite a different fauna and laws of life.
I just need to figure it out, and I hope you will help me.

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In the narrative context of the Garden of Eden account in Genesis, it seems to me to imply that entropy and death existed BEFORE Adam and Eve sinned.


So, yes, I think the narrative indicates death existed before the Fall.

tdidymas said:

1. If there was no animal death in the garden, then how could Adam understand what "die" meant? If what happens physically is a type of what happens spiritually, then Adam understood God to mean spiritual death, since he was not deceived according to Paul in 1 Tim. 2:14. If Adam could not die in the garden, then why was there a tree of life, and why did God exile Adam from the garden for the purpose of disallowing him to eat from the tree of life? Therefore, it was possible for Adam to die a natural death in the garden, and it was possible for him to live forever by eating from the tree of life.
2. It is presumptuous to assume that Adam's "death" was physical, since God said "in the day that you eat of it, you shall surely die." "In the day" means that day, it doesn't mean 1000 years later. It says he would die the day he eats of it, it doesn't say "begin to die" or any such thing. Therefore, God meant spiritual death, and spiritual death is what Paul was talking about in Rom. 5. It is difficult to distinguish in that chapter, because Jesus' physical death redeems us from spiritual death (not physical death). But John in 1 John says that we "have" eternal life already, meaning we cannot die a spiritual death again. He is obviously talking about spiritual life, because the physical death rate is still 100%.

Therefore, to claim that natural death was not possible (or did not happen) before the fall is presumptuous and speculative. I recommend this book which explains how God could easily have anticipated the fall of man, and created the world as it is today: Amazon.com

In the same way, it is presumptuous, speculative, and naive to impose modern science into a reading of Gen. 1. I recommend this book which explains that God made the Earth as a temple, and that Gen. 1 is an Ancient Near East document on how the "temple" was built: Amazon.com

The Bible is not a science textbook, and should not be read as such. For example, Gen. 2 begs the questions, how could the serpent talk, and why is crawling on its belly its curse when that's what it does? John explains that Satan is "the serpent of old," therefore, there is symbolism in Genesis, and crass literalists could be wrong in their assessment of it. For example, it is faulty interpretation to make up doctrines from silence. The idea that God could have changed the physical nature of the serpent is an argument from silence, because the Bible simply does not say nor imply it. IMO it's not a good idea to impose knowledge of modern science on a reading of ancient literature. Christianity does NOT stand or fall on someone's interpretation of Gen. 1.

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Well said. Today's winner.

Peace to all,
Their mortal eternal life was regenerated from the tree of Life in the Garden before the fall, and the tree is now guarded by Cheribum angels, the most powerful angels in the Garden, now closed to flesh utill the return of The Christ.

Peace always,
Stephen

Teresa W. said:

I always kind of thought they aged, but much more slowly.

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Science has never found the remains of anyone older than 30. We are told in the Bible they lived to be 1,000 but they do not look older than 30. So before Noah and the flood people must not have aged the way they do now. Cheddar man is a good example. We have an artistic impression of what he looked like and we also have a living relative.

Diamond7 said:

Science has never found the remains of anyone older than 30.

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They've found neanderthals between 40-55 years of age. They didn't seem to live as long as anatomically modern humans.

Ramses II was 90 at his death. Lack of modern medical care and nutritional deficiencies made the average lifetime shorter for ancient man, but there's no evidence that our particular subspecies was intrinsically shorter-lived than people today.

The Barbarian said:

Lack of modern medical care and nutritional deficiencies made the average lifetime shorter for ancient man,

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Actually there was a high mortality rate for children. A lot of the reason people are living longer now is because of the vaccine program 60 year ago. Even there was a president that had Polio. But it was rare they photographed him in his well chair. Franklin D. Roosevelt.

My brother has done medical missionary work in third world nations that still have a rate of childhood diseases. Of course we abort a lot of babies so maybe it is a trade off.

The Barbarian said:

neanderthals between 40-55 years of age.

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Early development may also have necessary due to the early death of Neanderthals, with 85% of the species estimated to have died by the age of 40. But my OPINION is they did not age so they looked a lot younger. I have no science to back up that opinion. We do have the Bible that tells us people lived to be 1,000 years of age. Science does not dispute that it is possible for people to live that long.

Peace to all,

To me it seems like the logic goes as, In the garden was the Tree of Life, that gave eternal life to mortal beings. Through choice, the tree of life was lost by the tree of knowledge of good and evil, creating logical love. Choice now is in the hands of mankind, to save Himself through the power and will of the spirit that unites all mankind as one in being through the fulfilled eternal love in The Christ, the Body of God.

So perhaps, Through Adam and Eve, Logical love is created and through The New Adam, Jesus, Logical Love is fulfilled by the Power of the Shared Spirit will of God.

Peace always,
Stephen

Diamond7 said:

Actually there was a high mortality rate for children. A lot of the reason people are living longer now is because of the vaccine program 60 year ago.

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Just a quick clarification for everyone. When talking about the AVERAGE lifespan, this includes the death rate of children. So if there was a plague that wiped out 50% of all children, that would reduce the average lifespan of the community -- even though it did nothing to the longevity of adults. There is a difference between expected length of life between an infant just born, who might expect to live an average of 60 yrs, and a woman who has already made it to age 50, and thereby can well expect to live an average 20-30 more years (I'm making these numbers up for examples).

At this actuarial site US social securty actual life tables at age 0, the life expectancy is 79 yrs more years. And at age 79 yrs, the life expectancy is 10 more years.

KevinT said:

the life expectancy is 79 yrs more years.

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The Bible says during the 1,000 year reign of Christ the life expectancy will be 100.

Diamond7 said:

The Bible says during the 1,000 year reign of Christ the life expectancy will be 100.

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That is interesting. Can you give me a reference for this?

KT

KevinT said:

That is interesting. Can you give me a reference for this?

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It is a little bit hidden but plain enough for me to see we are headed in that direction.

Isaiah 65:20 “Never again will there be in it an infant who lives but a few days, or an old man who does not live out his years; the one who dies at a hundred will be thought a mere child; the one who fails to reach a hundred will be considered accursed.

People die early but it is God's plan for them to live out their years.

Interesting that death begins when the thymus gland starts deteriorating, right around 3 months old, then accelerates after puberty.

Research shows it's important in adulthood as well.

Peace to all,

To me, Through the Power of the Spirit will, life is more abundant on earth and becomes through the same Divine Spirit in the being, confirmed and regerated becomming transfigured into image of the Creator, God, The Father in Heaven.

To me, the logic is a more abundant life on earth, perhaps longer in span as mortal in His will and then to become glorified immortal forever.

Peace always,
Stephen

Diamond7 said:

It is a little bit hidden but plain enough for me to see we are headed in that direction.

Isaiah 65:20 “Never again will there be in it an infant who lives but a few days, or an old man who does not live out his years; the one who dies at a hundred will be thought a mere child; the one who fails to reach a hundred will be considered accursed.

People die early but it is God's plan for them to live out their years.

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This is interesting. One would think that when predicting the future, it would be that people are going to live forever. So I wonder what time Isaiah was talking about. I know you said that you see that as being during the millennium.
Thanks
KT

KevinT said:

This is interesting. One would think that when predicting the future, it would be that people are going to live forever. So I wonder what time Isaiah was talking about. I know you said that you see that as being during the millennium. Thanks KT

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Revelation 21 we are talking about a New Heaven and a New Earth. This is at the end of the 1,000 year reign of Christ.