Was the type books or was the type blood?

[tall73]

This thread has some similar concepts to earlier ones. But the wife says I make things too complicated. This is an attempt to simplify.

Books or Blood?




Adventists say that the Investigative Judgment is the cleansing of the heavenly record books. They see this as the fulfillment of the Day of Atonement type of cleansing the sanctuary by blood in Leviticus 16.

But was the type about books?

Or was the type about blood?

Read for yourself:

Lev 16:12 And he shall take a censer full of coals of fire from the altar before the LORD, and two handfuls of sweet incense beaten small, and he shall bring it inside the veil
Lev 16:13 and put the incense on the fire before the LORD, that the cloud of the incense may cover the mercy seat that is over the testimony, so that he does not die.
Lev 16:14 And he shall take some of the blood of the bull and sprinkle it with his finger on the front of the mercy seat on the east side, and in front of the mercy seat he shall sprinkle some of the blood with his finger seven times.
Lev 16:15 "Then he shall kill the goat of the sin offering that is for the people and bring its blood inside the veil and do with its blood as he did with the blood of the bull, sprinkling it over the mercy seat and in front of the mercy seat.
Lev 16:16 Thus he shall make atonement for the Holy Place, because of the uncleannesses of the people of Israel and because of their transgressions, all their sins. And so he shall do for the tent of meeting, which dwells with them in the midst of their uncleannesses.
Lev 16:17 No one may be in the tent of meeting from the time he enters to make atonement in the Holy Place until he comes out and has made atonement for himself and for his house and for all the assembly of Israel.
Lev 16:18 Then he shall go out to the altar that is before the LORD and make atonement for it, and shall take some of the blood of the bull and some of the blood of the goat, and put it on the horns of the altar all around.
Lev 16:19 And he shall sprinkle some of the blood on it with his finger seven times, and cleanse it and consecrate it from the uncleannesses of the people of Israel.

Did you see in that text a description of someone pouring over books in judgment? I didn't.

What was there?

There was a presentation of blood in the presence of God, in the Most Holy Place, where the blood was brought right to the ark where God dwelt.

Cleansing was made for the holy things.

Now when we look for the fulfillment of this type what should we be looking for? Books or blood?

Obviously we should be looking for blood brought into God's presence for the purpose of cleansing and atonement. And that is what we find in Hebrews:


Heb 9:22 Indeed, under the law almost everything is purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins.
Heb 9:23 Thus it was necessary for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these rites, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
Heb 9:24 For Christ has entered, not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf.
Heb 9:25 Nor was it to offer himself repeatedly, as the high priest enters the holy places every year with blood not his own,
Heb 9:26 for then he would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.


Jesus fulfilled the type at His ascension. We have been misinterpreting the type to support an investigative judgment in 1844. We made it about books and judgment. But it was about blood and atonement for sin.

Note also this text, in close proximity:

Heb 9:11 But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things that have come, then through the greater and more perfect tent (not made with hands, that is, not of this creation)
Heb 9:12 he entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption.


The true fulfillment of the type was already spelled out.

 

[Sophia7]

Nice simplification.

 

[NightEternal]

I'm gonna go with BLOOD for 25 Alex!



* dum, dum, dum, dum, dum, dum, duuuum...dum, dum, dum, dum, daaaaa, da, da, da, da, da...*

What did I win?

Geeze Tall, did you ever consider becoming a theology professor? Even with my B.A. in Religious Studies I don't go as in-depth into a subject as you do.

 

[moicherie]

I have wondered why God who can speak things into existence would need books.

 

[Sophia7]

I have wondered why God who can speak things into existence would need books.

Why would He need books anymore anyway? He could watch it all on DVD, or maybe the angels could stream everything they record on their website.

 

[Jon0388g]

This thread has some similar concepts to earlier ones. But the wife says I make things too complicated. This is an attempt to simplify.

Books or Blood?




Adventists say that the Investigative Judgment is the cleansing of the heavenly record books. They see this as the fulfillment of the Day of Atonement type of cleansing the sanctuary by blood in Leviticus 16.

But was the type about books?

Or was the type about blood?

Read for yourself:

Lev 16:12 And he shall take a censer full of coals of fire from the altar before the LORD, and two handfuls of sweet incense beaten small, and he shall bring it inside the veil
Lev 16:13 and put the incense on the fire before the LORD, that the cloud of the incense may cover the mercy seat that is over the testimony, so that he does not die.
Lev 16:14 And he shall take some of the blood of the bull and sprinkle it with his finger on the front of the mercy seat on the east side, and in front of the mercy seat he shall sprinkle some of the blood with his finger seven times.
Lev 16:15 "Then he shall kill the goat of the sin offering that is for the people and bring its blood inside the veil and do with its blood as he did with the blood of the bull, sprinkling it over the mercy seat and in front of the mercy seat.
Lev 16:16 Thus he shall make atonement for the Holy Place, because of the uncleannesses of the people of Israel and because of their transgressions, all their sins. And so he shall do for the tent of meeting, which dwells with them in the midst of their uncleannesses.
Lev 16:17 No one may be in the tent of meeting from the time he enters to make atonement in the Holy Place until he comes out and has made atonement for himself and for his house and for all the assembly of Israel.
Lev 16:18 Then he shall go out to the altar that is before the LORD and make atonement for it, and shall take some of the blood of the bull and some of the blood of the goat, and put it on the horns of the altar all around.
Lev 16:19 And he shall sprinkle some of the blood on it with his finger seven times, and cleanse it and consecrate it from the uncleannesses of the people of Israel.

Did you see in that text a description of someone pouring over books in judgment? I didn't.

What was there?

There was a presentation of blood in the presence of God, in the Most Holy Place, where the blood was brought right to the ark where God dwelt.

Cleansing was made for the holy things.

Now when we look for the fulfillment of this type what should we be looking for? Books or blood?

Obviously we should be looking for blood brought into God's presence for the purpose of cleansing and atonement. And that is what we find in Hebrews:


Heb 9:22 Indeed, under the law almost everything is purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins.
Heb 9:23 Thus it was necessary for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these rites, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
Heb 9:24 For Christ has entered, not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf.
Heb 9:25 Nor was it to offer himself repeatedly, as the high priest enters the holy places every year with blood not his own,
Heb 9:26 for then he would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.


Jesus fulfilled the type at His ascension. We have been misinterpreting the type to support an investigative judgment in 1844. We made it about books and judgment. But it was about blood and atonement for sin.

Note also this text, in close proximity:

Heb 9:11 But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things that have come, then through the greater and more perfect tent (not made with hands, that is, not of this creation)
Heb 9:12 he entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption.


The true fulfillment of the type was already spelled out.

So, we are clean from all our sins before the Lord?


Jon

 

[Sophia7]

So, we are clean from all our sins before the Lord?


Jon

YES!!!

HEB 10:11 Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God. 13 Since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool, 14 because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.
_____________________________________

1CO 6:9 Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.
​

 

[digdeep]

YES!!!

HEB 10:11 Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God. 13 Since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool, 14 because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.​

_____________________________________​

1CO 6:9 Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.​

now that's good news!!

here's a question: if we was not clean of our sins before the Lord could we have peace with God? Romans 5:1


DD

 

[Sophia7]

now that's good news!!

here's a question: if we was not clean of our sins before the Lord could we have peace with God? Romans 5:1


DD

That's a great text, too.

RO 5:1 Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we rejoice in the hope of the glory of God. 3 Not only so, but we also rejoice in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; 4 perseverance, character; and character, hope. 5 And hope does not disappoint us, because God has poured out his love into our hearts by the Holy Spirit, whom he has given us.

RO 5:6 You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. 7 Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous man, though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die. 8 But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

RO 5:9 Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through him! 10 For if, when we were God's enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life! 11 Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.​

 

[tall73]

So, we are clean from all our sins before the Lord?


Jon

You raise the timing issue here.

The timing issue is not really the main point of this thread. It might be better discussed in my other one where I look at it in greater depth.

But for a moment let's look at one aspect of that .

The author is noting that Jesus made PROVISION for all forgiveness through the once for all sacrifice and presentation of blood.

But the author also presents us in real time going to the "throne of grace" to find help in time of need.

So the two are not at odds.

Forgiveness is given real-time when we repent. But cleansing of sins--which only comes through Christ's work--has been forever made in the one point in time, through the work of Christ,. Nothing else COULD forgive..

THAT PRESENTATION OF THE BLOOD, along with the sacrifice itself of course, was the fulfillment of the type. That is the point of this thread.

Now as long as we are in Christ the text does affirm we are perfect in Him, even though we are becoming holy. But this thread is more about the one-time act of provision in which He provided for the cleansing of all sins.

Now, since you only touched on one part of the subject--which is a closer parallel in your mind to the STATED type in Leviticus--Books or Blood?

 

[Jon0388g]

YES!!!

HEB 10:11 Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God. 13 Since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool, 14 because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.​

_____________________________________​

1CO 6:9 Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.​

Nope:


"And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations" Revelation 2:26


"For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins," Hebrews 10:26



Note I didn't ask if we are forgiven. I asked if we are clean from all our sins. There is a significant difference.


"Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants." Matthew 18:23


Please read this parable and reconsider your opinion.



Jon

 

[StormyOne]

the question still remains in my mind, did Christ actually have to die? Or was that a by-product of how he lived... Is the concept of atonement biased because of what we know about the sacrificial system, and couldn't God simply have said to humanity, you are forgiven, I will restore you....

 

[tall73]

I have wondered why God who can speak things into existence would need books.

The Bible does still speak about books. Now whether they are literal books I suppose we can wait and see. But books are biblical. They just are not mentioned in Lev. 16, and are not part of that type, which is the one we apply to them.

 

[Jon0388g]

You raise the timing issue here.

The timing issue is not really the main point of this thread. It might be better discussed in my other one where I look at it in greater depth.

But for a moment let's look at one aspect of that .

The author is noting that Jesus made PROVISION for all forgiveness through the once for all sacrifice and presentation of blood.

But the author also presents us in real time going to the "throne of grace" to find help in time of need.

So the two are not at odds.

Forgiveness is given real-time when we repent. But cleansing of sins--which only comes through Christ's work--has been forever made in the one point in time, through the work of Christ,. Nothing else COULD forgive..

THAT PRESENTATION OF THE BLOOD, along with the sacrifice itself of course, was the fulfillment of the type. That is the point of this thread.

Now as long as we are in Christ the text does affirm we are perfect in Him, even though we are becoming holy. But this thread is more about the one-time act of provision in which He provided for the cleansing of all sins.

Now, since you only touched on one part of the subject--which is a closer parallel in your mind to the STATED type in Leviticus--Books or Blood?

We are not clean in regard to all our sins until the sanctuary has been cleansed. This is the key point which you and Sophia are missing. What you are in essence saying is that the sanctuary was cleansed at Ascension. Hebrews does not state this.


You can infer all you want from the "day of atonement" imagery you suppose is pictured in Hebrews 9. We've already been down that road. Considering the basic fact that nowhere in Hebrews is Christ said to have entered the Most Holy Place doesn't make you stop and consider, I don't know what else will.


Not only are the records of sin in the sanctuary cleansed, but our consiences are cleansed of all sin aswel. Our bodies are individual temples of the Holy Spirit. We ourselves are cleansed through Christ's atoning blood. Did this happen at the Ascension? I think not.


"For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins." Hebrews 9:1


If we have been purged already, why is it that our knowledge of sin is still very, very real?


The pieces on your side do not fit together either, I'm afraid.



Jon

 

[tall73]

the question still remains in my mind, did Christ actually have to die? Or was that a by-product of how he lived... Is the concept of atonement biased because of what we know about the sacrificial system, and couldn't God simply have said to humanity, you are forgiven, I will restore you....

Was there another thread going on that? The way you phrased it made it sound like there is, and I vaguely recall a possible thread such as that. Could you link me to it? Perhaps we could hash it over there.

But I would point out one passage in the section we are looking at here that gives some suggestion that blood was needed.

Heb 9:22 Indeed, under the law almost everything is purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins.
Heb 9:23 Thus it was necessary for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these rites, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
Heb 9:24 For Christ has entered, not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf.
Heb 9:25 Nor was it to offer himself repeatedly, as the high priest enters the holy places every year with blood not his own,
Heb 9:26 for then he would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.


He seems to indicate that the sacrifice was necessary.

 

[StormyOne]

Was there another thread going on that? The way you phrased it made it sound like there is, and I vaguely recall a possible thread such as that. Could you link me to it? Perhaps we could hash it over there.

But I would point out one passage in the section we are looking at here that gives some suggestion that blood was needed.

Heb 9:22 Indeed, under the law almost everything is purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins.
Heb 9:23 Thus it was necessary for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these rites, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
Heb 9:24 For Christ has entered, not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf.
Heb 9:25 Nor was it to offer himself repeatedly, as the high priest enters the holy places every year with blood not his own,
Heb 9:26 for then he would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.


He seems to indicate that the sacrifice was necessary.

there was a thread, I believe it was derailed and closed... I just checked.... my mistake, its still open.... here is the link....

http://foru.ms/t6474682-did-christ-have-to-die.html

 

[Jon0388g]

Now, since you only touched on one part of the subject--which is a closer parallel in your mind to the STATED type in Leviticus--Books or Blood?

Since we have grown so far apart in our understanding it is pointless in going into this if we are at odds on the basics.

The blood is a type for Christ's blood. The record of sin is a type for the books. Simple as that.


Jon

 

[freeindeed2]

So, we are clean from all our sins before the Lord?


Jon

ABSOLUTELY! Can we say, "GOOD NEWS"?

 

[Jimlarmore]

Whether God needs a book or not is not up to us. The Bible tells us very clearly that books in heaven exist. They are:

1. The book of life: Phil 4:3, Rev 3:5, 13:8, 17:8, 20:12 etc.

2. The book of remembrance: Mal 3:16

I have never said the heavenly DOA was about books but the Bible makes it clear that those who are found written in "the book" would be allowed into heaven. It seems God is very strict about record keeping and who is or who is not in the "Book". The blood is what puts us into the book or if not applied excludes us from it.

In the final accounting time a close examination of the books will be something that will be done for the created beings like the angels and the unfallen beings from other planets all over the universe. God is all knowing but not all of His righteous creation is. The investigative judgement is going to happen for them not God. Nahum 1:9 says affliction shall not arise a second time. They need to know for sure that those allowed eternal life are truely eligible.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

 

[Jimlarmore]

The Bible says without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sins and we focus on the blood as being the cleansing factor but we need to remember that the blood itself is symbolic of the death of Christ. Blood by itself without death is meaningless. I know this is a technical perspective but you could extract just blood and not actually kill an animal. The Bible says the wages of sin is death. Christ took on our sins and had to die for them in our sted/place,,,, all of them.

God Bless
Jim Larmore