Was the Reformation an Experiment gone wrong?

[Pfaffenhofen]

In the first Millenium, there were dozens of experiments on Theology. Of whatever you could think about the nature of God and Jesus Christ appeared: One Person, 2 Persons, 3 persons, one Nature, 3 Natures and whatever.

When you reached the 1000 dC, you find one Church, strong and firm in Europe, unknown in other Continents.

Then Reformation came. As a Catholic, I think that it were the Protestant who separated.

I realize here and I have learned here in this Forum that many Protestant think that it was the RCC who separated from The church. This position raises many problems: separation from which Church? Who was the leader of separation? Was it leadership for not following the Reformers? Leadership for not Reforming?

Anyhow, the consequences have been fast.
Christians were expelled from Japan for fighting each other. The denominations exploded to an estimate of 30 thousand and growing at a 200 a month. If the statistics are not these, please furnish others.

The interpretation by conscience and the Sola Scriptura led to a splintering of Tradition or traditions as some like to make the distinction.

The RCC reformed itself several times since then. The Trident Council and the Vatican II drove the RCC worldwide though paths the Spirit. It numbers 1 billion people. The largest Protestant one is the Anglican Communion and as I am told it is not a Church in itself but a communion - 80,000,000.

In the extreme, we could imagine that every Protestant Person could have Its own Position leading to 1 billion positions, the number I guess it is the number of Protestant.

I foresee that in hundreds of years, the splintering of Protestantism will lead to Its extinction, like the Churches of the 1st Millennium.

Was the Reformation an Experiment gone wrong?

 

[Albion]

I foresee that in hundreds of years, the splintering of Protestantism will lead to Its extinction, like the Churches of the 1st Millennium.

You can always hope, huh? But 'Will Protestantism go the way of the Roman Church' should be the question. The RCC was once united but split into numerous parts. One part continued to be prominent and opposes its former members.

So possibly that is what would happen to Protestant Christianity in the distant future, except for one fact. Protestant theology does not consider all but one of the various Christian church bodies to be invalid. It holds to the belief that the church of Christ is bigger than any legal entity organized in his name. IOW, it doesn't hurt Protestantism to have a number of different church bodies since the Church itself is not divided. Churches which are exclusivistic, however, are a different matter.

And of course Protestant Christianity is growing at present, not declining, meaning that it is well that you projected your vision to be far, far into the future where anyone's guess is as good as anyone else's. My own suspicion is that the Roman Church will still be with us in a hundred years but it will look and operate exactly like a Protestant church. And that change IS already underway.

 

[athenken]

Was the Reformation an Experiment gone wrong?

I really don't think so. And as for which group separated from whom, I would say that the Church simply had a split, and has been having them ever since.

The split that occurred in the Reformation was necessary and right due to many of the fallacies that were being taught under the Roman Catholic Church.

As for the subsequent splits, I would surmise they have been mostly due to heresy and false teachings, especially coming out of the Great Awakenings.

 

[Albion]

As I was saying, it would be almost impossible for Protestantism to die since no amount of splitting would affect it. Each part is part of the whole. But with Catholicism, any split becomes a non-entity or adversary by Catholic theology. Thererfore, the prospects for the survival of the RCC is a much more interesting subject, don't you think? I mean, it has already moved strongly in the direction of Protestantism since the 1960s, and the Middle Ages can't live forever.

 

[Pfaffenhofen]

You can always hope, huh? But 'Will Protestantism go the way of the Roman Church' should be the question. The RCC was once united but split into numerous parts. One part continued to be prominent and opposes its former members.

So possibly that is what would happen to Protestant Christianity in the distant future, except for one fact. Protestant theology does not consider all but one of the various Christian church bodies to be invalid. It holds to the belief that the church of Christ is bigger than any legal entity organized in his name. IOW, it doesn't hurt Protestantism to have a number of different church bodies since the Church itself is not divided. Churches which are exclusivistic, however, are a different matter.

And of course Protestant Christianity is growing at present, not declining, meaning that it is well that you projected your vision to be far, far into the future where anyone's guess is as good as anyone else's. My own suspicion is that the Roman Church will still be with us in a hundred years but it will look and operate exactly like a Protestant church. And that change IS already underway.

To tell frankly what I think, it is not a pleasure for me to see the Protestant churches go.
Only if I hated them.
If I hated them, would not be here.
Actually, I hate no one as it is a waste of time.
But I fear that they will disappear for the splintering. Each new battle with modernity, abortion, homosexuality, ordination of women brings more splintering.
Unfortunately I see no other way than the Protestant Church merge into the RCC and accept the Pope and its consequences.
No way the Catholic Church will become like the Protestant. Never.
No, I do not see the Protestant Churches behaving like a One Body, in no way, in no aspect. Only theoreticallly.

 

[Pfaffenhofen]

I really don't think so. And as for which group separated from whom, I would say that the Church simply had a split, and has been having them ever since.

The split that occurred in the Reformation was necessary and right due to many of the fallacies that were being taught under the Roman Catholic Church.

As for the subsequent splits, I would surmise they have been mostly due to heresy and false teachings, especially coming out of the Great Awakenings.

The Reformation would reform from within.
Moreover, once started, Reformers cannot say anybody is wrong for every one may think by his own head, inspired by the Holy Spirit. So, as you say "heresy and false teachings", I say, that that makes no sense, there are no heresies and false teachings within Protestantism.

 

[Albion]

Unfortunately I see no other way than the Protestant Church merge into the RCC and accept the Pope and its consequences.

Dreams can be fun, right?

No way the Catholic Church will become like the Protestant.

It's well underway. That's why I said it, not because I was dreaming of the possibility. The RCC has already become much more like a typical Protestant church in both practice and doctrine than was true only a couple of generations ago. Shall we list the ways?

 

[Pfaffenhofen]

As I was saying, it would be almost impossible for Protestantism to die since no amount of splitting would affect it. Each part is part of the whole. But with Catholicism, any split becomes a non-entity or adversary by Catholic theology. Thererfore, the prospects for the survival of the RCC is a much more interesting subject, don't you think? I mean, it has already moved strongly in the direction of Protestantism since the 1960s, and the Middle Ages can't live forever.

No, the Catholic Church did not move into the Protestantism Path. Actually our paths have gone further away.
It is a pity. Every time the Protestant do something that gets them away from us, specially the Anglicans, it is a spear into our hearts, take for example, the ordination of women and the question of homosexuality. We suffered a lot for that decision took them further away from us. Even split Anglicanism.
No, only theoretically the Protestant are one Church. That is seeing too much. The doctrines are different, the congregations are different, all is different. People even create new Churches for they are dissatisfied with the one they have and they are not few.

 

[athenken]

The Reformation would reform from within.
Moreover, once started, Reformers cannot say anybody is wrong for every one may think by his own head, inspired by the Holy Spirit. So, as you say "heresy and false teachings", I say, that that makes no sense, there are no heresies and false teachings within Protestantism.

Actually, if a teaching is in direct contradiction to what the bible teaches, then yes it is heresy. It is quite possible for people within the Protestant denominations to commit heresies. This was the backbone of what Paul was talking about in many of his letters. Which also was a huge reason for the Reformation.

To say there can be no possibility in the Protestant denominations is exteremely naive.

 

[WinBySurrender]

Was the Reformation an Experiment gone wrong?

No, it was an experiment gone right! By your own admission, the RCC has gone through several reformations of its own since Luther nailed his 95 theses to the door of the Wittenberg Cathedral, and has come around to the teaching of grace for salvation, though continues to make the mistake, at least at the corporate level of the church (that is, the Vatican) that works have a role as well.

Thankfully, at least here in the Midwest, most Catholics I know have rejected works-based faith and realize that it is by faith alone that salvation is accomplished. At least we can pray the RCC makes the next logical step and joins "us Protestants" in preaching the truth of Scripture.

 

[Albion]

Thankfully, at least here in the Midwest, most Catholics I know have rejected works-based faith and realize that it is by faith alone that salvation is accomplished.

Now, that is excellent news!

At least we can pray the RCC makes the next logical step and joins "us Protestants" in preaching the truth of Scripture.

Well, as I said, it appears to be underway as far as the official church is concerned. And with your news about individual Catholics coming around on on their own...

 

[Albion]

No, the Catholic Church did not move into the Protestantism Path.

Oh sure it did. Look at all the changes it's made in just recent years. It's as though most of what the Reformation had called for but the Church of Rome wasn't ready for just then is being reconsidered.

No, only theoretically the Protestant are one Church.

Theoretically, "the Protestant are NOT one Church." You wrote a whole post saying you had finally gotten that straight.

We believe that the whole church of Christ is 'one' in the ultimate sense. It also includes your denomination. The splits that fascinate you so are just differences between organizations, not divisions in the Church Christ founded. It was/is a movement, not a club.

 

[Pfaffenhofen]

Actually, if a teaching is in direct contradiction to what the bible teaches, then yes it is heresy. It is quite possible for people within the Protestant denominations to commit heresies. This was the backbone of what Paul was talking about in many of his letters. Which also was a huge reason for the Reformation.

To say there can be no possibility in the Protestant denominations is exteremely naive.

You cannot have it both ways.
You reject Tradition, so you cannot have new Traditions.
You defend private interpretation of the Bible, you cannot condemn other's interpretation of the Bible only because it is not yours.

So, surprising that there are Tradition and dogmas in the Protestant Churches...

 

[Pfaffenhofen]

No, it was an experiment gone right! By your own admission, the RCC has gone through several reformations of its own since Luther nailed his 95 theses to the door of the Wittenberg Cathedral, and has come around to the teaching of grace for salvation, though continues to make the mistake, at least at the corporate level of the church (that is, the Vatican) that works have a role as well.

Thankfully, at least here in the Midwest, most Catholics I know have rejected works-based faith and realize that it is by faith alone that salvation is accomplished. At least we can pray the RCC makes the next logical step and joins "us Protestants" in preaching the truth of Scripture.

wrong.
The RCC has gone through multiple Reformations since the Apostles when they discussed circumcision for gentiles and eating pork.
Trident and Vatican Councils had no help from Protestants whatsoever.
So, you have faith in God and are a gangster, and it is OK. As long as he trusts in Jesus Christ and put hil soul into His hand, he is saved, even with bloody hands.

And on the other hand, Mother Theresa of Calcutta work is nil. Her work and being in the coffee shop drinking beer an smoking whatever, both are the same...

Funny.

Thankfully, at least here in the Midwest, most Catholics I know have rejected works-based faith and realize that it is by faith alone that salvation is accomplished.

I have serious doubts about your quote.
Look at this and explain how works have nothing to do with salvation:

<< Matthew 25 >>
New American Standard Bible

[URL="http://bible.cc/matthew/25-35.htm"]35

‘For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in; 36naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.’ 37“Then the righteous will answer Him, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink? 38‘And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You? 39‘When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40“The King will answer and say to them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.’ 41“Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; 42for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; 43I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.’ 44“Then they themselves also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?’ 45“Then He will answer them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46“These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

[/URL]

Unless in the Midwest in another Planet...

 

[Albion]

You cannot have it both ways.
You reject Tradition, so you cannot have new Traditions.

Rest easy. No one suggested such a thing.

You defend private interpretation of the Bible

As a right. We also defend YOUR right to read the Bible. Do you think you should not?

So, surprising that there are Tradition and dogmas in the Protestant Churches...

Of course there are dogmas in the Protestant churches, but none that are based upon so-called Sacred Tradition.

 

[Pfaffenhofen]

Now, that is excellent news!



Well, as I said, it appears to be underway as far as the official church is concerned. And with your news about individual Catholics coming around on on their own...

Not true news. Midwest is vast...
No way...

 

[Pfaffenhofen]

Oh sure it did. Look at all the changes it's made in just recent years. It's as though most of what the Reformation had called for but the Church of Rome wasn't ready for just then is being reconsidered.



Theoretically, "the Protestant are NOT one Church." You wrote a whole post saying you had finally gotten that straight.

We believe that the whole church of Christ is 'one' in the ultimate sense. It also includes your denomination. The splits that fascinate you so are just differences between organizations, not divisions in the Church Christ founded. It was/is a movement, not a club.

In recent years I did not one millimeter going towards the Protestantism. If you care to quote!?
Real presence? Sacraments? Priesthood? The role of the Pope? The dogmas? Nothing. Maybe in some folkloric ways but in the essential, none.


Let's not joke with words. Let's not do whatever pleases us and say that all of us are the one Church of Christ. We are not, unless united through the Pope. Period.

 

[Albion]

In recent years I did not one millimeter going towards the Protestantism. If you care to quote!?
Real presence? Sacraments? Priesthood? The role of the Pope? The dogmas? Nothing. Maybe in some folkloric ways but in the essential, none.

Wrong again. Here are some--
................

Communion in both kinds (a key Protestant point during the Reformation)

Women in some roles previous denied them, such as readers, Eucharistic ministers, acolytes.

The liturgy in the language spoken by the people

No more Limbo; Purgatory redefined to make it less terrifying.

Fasting and abstinence rules relaxed substantially.

Clergy from other churches received.

Divorce now acceptable and common (new name: annullment)

Bible study by the people is actually encouraged.

Parish councils made up of laypersons.



Need more examples?

 

[WinBySurrender]

wrong.
The RCC has gone through multiple Reformations since the Apostles when they discussed circumcision for gentiles and eating pork.
Trident and Vatican Councils had no help from Protestants whatsoever.
So, you have faith in God and are a gangster, and it is OK. As long as he trusts in Jesus Christ and put hil soul into His hand, he is saved, even with bloody hands.

Funny you should mention that. Any idea what my calling is? Helping ex-felons -- male and female -- make the adjustment to living a life in Christ free from drugs, alcohol and crime. So yeah, as long as he or she trusts in Jesus Christ and puts his or her soul into His hand, he or she is saved -- and they no longer have bloody hands because Jesus washed them white as snow.

Strange that you post otherwise ....

By the way, know why this is my calling?
'Cuz I are one.

 

[Pfaffenhofen]

Funny you should mention that. Any idea what my calling is? Helping ex-felons -- male and female -- make the adjustment to living a life in Christ free from drugs, alcohol and crime. So yeah, as long as he or she trusts in Jesus Christ and puts his or her soul into His hand, he or she is saved -- and they no longer have bloody hands because Jesus washed them white as snow.

Strange that you post otherwise ....

By the way, know why this is my calling?
'Cuz I are one.

That was a low blow...
I never posted what you were doing. You never posed that in face of what we are saying. You never asked: "Should I preach to drug addicts and prostitutes?".
Now you make me say that I forbade you from preaching Jesus to people with addictions.
Comme on, that is no way of discussing.
Bad luck, I am doing the same as you !!