Was the Reformation an Experiment gone wrong?

[Pfaffenhofen]

You would know better than we would. Have you killed anyone lately?

So why Catholics of today have to take blame for Inquisition sins. The Pope asked for forgiveness and said it was a mistake. What can be done more than what we have done?

 

[Pfaffenhofen]

Jesus said that if we so much as look upon another person with lust in our hearts we have committed adultery, so it would be reasonable to think that if anyone willingly adopts a group that is guilty of engaging in persistent and serious sin, he takes it upon himself too.

if anyone willingly adopts a group that is guilty of engaging in persistent and serious sin

Oh! I thought the talk would be about the Inquisition. Sorry. But which group is that?

Moreover, which is the group that never sins? The first to be without sin please throw the first stone...

 

[Pfaffenhofen]

As said it depends on what Church on goes to. In most you have Sunday School which teach Lessons from the Bible, than everyone meets in Church for the exposition from the Word. Then in the Church or peoples homes there are various Bible studies during the week and most Churches have services on Wednesday from the Bible. All in all Protestants do have a greater knowledge of the Bible than your average Joe Catholic.



From my experience Protestant Ministers do have more brilliant sermons, there again it does depend. Osteen I would not even consider in the same category with many Pastors like Dr. Stanley, who expounds from the word and we watch him every Sunday. My favorite was D. James Kennedy.



I can say that since I converted over 15 years ago there have only been a handful of really good sermon giving Priest in my experience

To know more of the Bible is to interpret it better. An Catholics do it better. It is useless to know that E=mc2 if you do not know how to interpret it.

In the Catholic Church, it is taught (and I studied to be a priest but left before being ordained) that you should not attract the attention to yourself, to your brilliant words. You should attract the attention to Jesus Christ. If you are too briliant, Jesus Christ has no place. If you are humble, Jesus Christ finds a space to shine.

I agree to you that Catholic preaching does not shine. BUT, from my experience, even from the most unskillful priest, God gives me every time a message through a word, a sentence, a message. I feel that each sermon is made for me like a coincidence. That's not subjective feeling. Many times my wife tell me: "Look, this if for you!", for what we were talking about, for my depressions or anxieties of the moment. This is a personal experience and of course no one is forced to believe what I feel.

 

[Pfaffenhofen]

I was thinking today that because of the Reformation we got America, so I don't think it was a failure

Religion is for intended for Politics.
Indians were there before Protestants. There was an America.
Were not for the Protestant, others would have gone there.
History is not prisoners of the Founding Fathers.
Wouldn't they have come, were a group of Catholics coming into America instead of a group of Protestant, would not America be much better?

 

[iLogos]

In the first Millenium, there were dozens of experiments on Theology. Of whatever you could think about the nature of God and Jesus Christ appeared: One Person, 2 Persons, 3 persons, one Nature, 3 Natures and whatever.

When you reached the 1000 dC, you find one Church, strong and firm in Europe, unknown in other Continents.

Then Reformation came. As a Catholic, I think that it were the Protestant who separated.

I realize here and I have learned here in this Forum that many Protestant think that it was the RCC who separated from The church. This position raises many problems: separation from which Church? Who was the leader of separation? Was it leadership for not following the Reformers? Leadership for not Reforming?

Anyhow, the consequences have been fast.
Christians were expelled from Japan for fighting each other. The denominations exploded to an estimate of 30 thousand and growing at a 200 a month. If the statistics are not these, please furnish others.

The interpretation by conscience and the Sola Scriptura led to a splintering of Tradition or traditions as some like to make the distinction.

The RCC reformed itself several times since then. The Trident Council and the Vatican II drove the RCC worldwide though paths the Spirit. It numbers 1 billion people. The largest Protestant one is the Anglican Communion and as I am told it is not a Church in itself but a communion - 80,000,000.

In the extreme, we could imagine that every Protestant Person could have Its own Position leading to 1 billion positions, the number I guess it is the number of Protestant.

I foresee that in hundreds of years, the splintering of Protestantism will lead to Its extinction, like the Churches of the 1st Millennium.

Was the Reformation an Experiment gone wrong?

I often wondered exactly when and where the original Christian Church split from it's roots and became Catholic. Some where around the 2nd century? The splits just never stopped after Catholicism. I see the Reformers as trying to store some of what was lost thru Catholicism. I wonder if there will even be Catholicism in another hundred years and if so what form they will take then.

 

[athenken]

So why Catholics of today have to take blame for Inquisition sins. The Pope asked for forgiveness and said it was a mistake. What can be done more than what we have done?

Personally, I do not simply equate the atrocities of the Spanish Inquisition, or the Crusades for that matter, to the Catholic Church as a whole, even though it was ultimately responsible, if not directly at fault. However, there are a great many within the church that were proponents of them. That being said, it is important to learn from the church's past mistakes, and realize that it is possible for an entire organization to lose face (reputation) because of the ill advised actions of a portion of its members. Also, how the church handles the consequences of such actions ultimately solidifies its reputation.

 

[Albion]

So why Catholics of today have to take blame for Inquisition sins.

Well, we might ask you why reformed Christians of today are supposed to take the blame for Henry VIII's personal affairs (or Luther or Calvin, etc.), yet that's a favorite theme of yours on these forums.

 

[Rick Otto]

quote=Pfaffenhofen;Religion is for intended for Politics.

Long live Emperor Constantine!

Indians were there before Protestants.

I was processed thru customs back into America by an American Indian who was in a U.S. Customs uniform awhile back. I asked him if he was sensing the irony, & he smiled & said, "Every day."

Were not for the Protestant, others would have gone there.

Others including agents of the Pope (Columbus) DID go there even before the Pilgrim Prots. It was a contest of motivations, as it remains.

History is not prisoners of the Founding Fathers.

We are all prisoners of history & history is prisoner of the truth, in God's view.

Wouldn't they have come, were a group of Catholics coming into America instead of a group of Protestant, would not America be much better?

Well, there is some truth to the saying that "At least Mussolini made the trains run on time."

 

[Rick Otto]

Well, we might ask you why reformed Christians of today are supposed to take the blame for Henry VIII's personal affairs (or Luther or Calvin, etc.), yet that's a favorite theme of yours on these forums.

Can we take it as an unintended compliment to be put in such esteemed company that we may bear reproach?

 

[Pfaffenhofen]

Well, we might ask you why reformed Christians of today are supposed to take the blame for Henry VIII's personal affairs (or Luther or Calvin, etc.), yet that's a favorite theme of yours on these forums.

Never. You understood it wrongly. I do not blame Protestant for any of the past sins, and never did so. I did not mention neither Calvin nor Luther on this argument.

Only Henry VIII: I cannot understand how a person can live peacefully in a church whose ???? how shall I call Him, Reformer ?, Founder?, Beginner?, Cause of Separation From Rome, Whatever, is a person whose personal life is such. If He was an ordinary King, I would not care less. But he had such an influence on the future of the Church of England that we would expect somebody more like Luther or Calvin. If he was someone like Mother Theresa of Calcutta or St Damien or St. Francis of Assisi, of he might say wrong things but he would be considered a Man of God. But him?

I do not blame present Anglicans for his sins. I just wonder how can one live with him being the Reformer of the Church of England.

I would say the same of the Mormons. His Founder, boy, ....

I never blamed present day Lutherans for Henry VIII having cut as many Catholic Heads.

 

[Albion]

Never. You understood it wrongly. I do not blame Protestant for any of the past sins, and never did so. I did not mention neither Calvin nor Luther on this argument.

But you have done exactly that on many other threads. I did say "forums" when making my point, if you notice.

I do not blame present Anglicans for his sins. I just wonder how can one live with him being the Reformer of the Church of England.

How can you live with the memory of the Spanish Inquisition?

 

[Albion]

Can we take it as an unintended compliment to be put in such esteemed company that we may bear reproach?

I don't know, Rick, maybe, but I just love your way with the language!

 

[Pfaffenhofen]

But you have done exactly that on many other threads. I did say "forums" when making my point, if you notice.



How can you live with the memory of the Spanish Inquisition?

Sorry, I am not looking back at the Forums. I do not remember telling that. Anyhow, if you want to know what I think I tell you. My thought is: Present day people either live by past glories and should take the burden for past black points or do not mention either, just live the present day without a past. My attitude: I am part a community, so I take past glories and past sins as mine.

The Spanish Inquisition, as far as I can remember, did not change Church Doctrine up to present days. It was a black spot; I, having nothing to do with it, pray now for the past victims of the brutal Inquisition. But their influence on the present day Church is nil.

From Henry VIII, he had a great influence on the Church of England. Thus, to be a person on whose words and deeds we can rely upon, He should have been a man of great integrity and character and a great theologian, like St. Thomas of Aquinas, for instance.

 

[Pfaffenhofen]

Long live Emperor Constantine!

I was processed thru customs back into America by an American Indian who was in a U.S. Customs uniform awhile back. I asked him if he was sensing the irony, & he smiled & said, "Every day."

Others including agents of the Pope (Columbus) DID go there even before the Pilgrim Prots. It was a contest of motivations, as it remains.

We are all prisoners of history & history is prisoner of the truth, in God's view.
Well, there is some truth to the saying that "At least Mussolini made the trains run on time."

Seems Emperor Constantin is a "persona non Grata" here. Maybe because of instead torturing the Christians he decided to allow them to worship freely. Never heard so much talk about the Emperor Constantin as here. Now, he is the badman. Shocking.

I am in no mood to turn a serious discussion into a set of bad taste jokes.

 

[Albion]

Sorry, I am not looking back at the Forums.

Then you cannot say that I was wrong or that you didn't say what you did. Let's move on.

I do not remember telling that.

and you're determined not to find out, either.

Anyhow, if you want to know what I think I tell you

I already know. It's you who can't remember.

The Spanish Inquisition, as far as I can remember, did not change Church Doctrine up to present days. It was a black spot; I, having nothing to do with it, pray now for the past victims of the brutal Inquisition. But their influence on the present day Church is nil.

Sin is sin. It doesn't have to have changed the course of history.

From Henry VIII, he had a great influence on the Church of England. Thus, to be a person on whose words and deeds we can rely upon, He should have been a man of great integrity and character and a great theologian, like St. Thomas of Aquinas, for instance.

Maybe Bernard Cardinal Law should be more like C S Lewis.

 

[Rick Otto]

Seems Emperor Constantin is a "persona non Grata" here. Maybe because of instead torturing the Christians he decided to allow them to worship freely. Never heard so much talk about the Emperor Constantin as here. Now, he is the badman. Shocking.

I am in no mood to turn a serious discussion into a set of bad taste jokes.

Whoa, there... ! We are ALL "bad men". I didn't mean to offend, I was responding to the statement that religion is made for politics. Him not torturing was automaticaly humane despite the political shrewdness of it?
His waiting till being on his deathbed to get baptized so that he would die free of sin is only worth a shrug because he recognized he needed to legalize what a lot of of his own soldiers were doing?

 

[steve_bakr]

I am a Catholic and my wife is a Protestant. I thank God that we don't argue over doctrine or Church history. Otherwise, our "mixed marriage" would not work.

I think the Church recognizes that the children of the Reformation have been born into ways of worship that makes the Catholic liturgy seem unnatural, excepting for the "high churches."

Most Protestant churches center on what we Catholics call the homily, and of course music plays a big role as well. In other words, the style of worship is different, and we cannot fairly expect every Protestant to.convert over to a style of worship that seems foreign to them.

I think that the Church is looking towards Ecumenism rather than to relive the battles of the Reformation. For example, the Catholic Church and the Lutheran Church are now in agreement on the matter of faith and works.

Catholics need to reach out to their Protestant brethren and, yes, in many instances educate them to realize we are closer than they think. We believe in the same Lord.

Most of the anti-Catholic stuff about Mary, the saints, and the Pope stem from ignorance.

We need to concentrate on what we share in common rather than on reliving the old battles.

Education is all important.

 

[Albion]

I am a Catholic and my wife is a Protestant. I thank God that we don't argue over doctrine or Church history. Otherwise, our "mixed marriage" would not work.

I think the Church recognizes that the children of the Reformation have been born into ways of worship that makes the Catholic liturgy seem unnatural, excepting for the "high churches."

Most Protestant churches center on what we Catholics call the homily, and of course music plays a big role as well. In other words, the style of worship is different, and we cannot fairly expect every Protestant to.convert over to a style of worship that seems foreign to them.

I think that the Church is looking towards Ecumenism rather than to relive the battles of the Reformation. For example, the Catholic Church and the Lutheran Church are now in agreement on the matter of faith and works.

Catholics need to reach out to their Protestant brethren and, yes, in many instances educate them to realize we are closer than they think. We believe in the same Lord.

Most of the anti-Catholic stuff about Mary, the saints, and the Pope stem from ignorance.

Awww. And you were doing so well up to that point :o:o

 

[whitetiger1]

Religion is for intended for Politics.
Indians were there before Protestants. There was an America.
Were not for the Protestant, others would have gone there.
History is not prisoners of the Founding Fathers.
Wouldn't they have come, were a group of Catholics coming into America instead of a group of Protestant, would not America be much better?

I actually do not think it would be better nor wold we have the freedoms we now enjoy.

 

[Pfaffenhofen]

Then you cannot say that I was wrong or that you didn't say what you did. Let's move on.


and you're determined not to find out, either.



I already know. It's you who can't remember.



Sin is sin. It doesn't have to have changed the course of history.



Maybe Bernard Cardinal Law should be more like C S Lewis.

Sorry, I dont go to what I said. If you want to know what I think, just ask now.
OK, you may be proud of Henry VIII, I would not be. Sins are sins but Inquisition did not set a Church of Spain.
Whatever. I do not know the people who mention, but if they are good people, that is what I mean.