Was the Reformation an Experiment gone wrong?

athenken · Feb 10, 2012

Pfaffenhofen said:
Sorry for not following the thread carefully.
If God did not want to convey different messages through different Gospels, why have them 4: it should be One Only.

True, the overall message in each of the four books is the same, however, there are some additional call-outs by each author that is different from the others. For example, John specifically takes the time to clarify at the beginning of his Gospel that Jesus was there at the beginning, where the others make no mention of it. I, of course, would not go so far as to say that this was an oversight by Mark, Matthew, and Luke, but I would say that it is something that the Holy Spirit inspired John to include in his Gospel.

Root of Jesse · Feb 10, 2012

Albion said:
Well, what's in YOUR experience doesn't define the issue. You don't want to hear about the Roman Catholic Church based upon what's "in my experience."

Well, check out other's experiences. Ask the thousands that sit in on Joel Osteen services. How much of the Bible do they use in worship? How about Billy Graham revivals? Even Dr. Stanley doesn't sit there and read extensively from his Bible, though after the service there's a full-fledged Bible study going on. The point is, it's not just my experience.

Then that's what you should have said in the first place rather than making up another "whopper."

Didn't make up anything. I'm sorry if I talked over your head, though. Next time I'll ask you for clearance before I make a statement.

Pfaffenhofen · Feb 10, 2012

athenken said:
True, the overall message in each of the four books is the same, however, there are some additional call-outs by each author that is different from the others. For example, John specifically takes the time to clarify at the beginning of his Gospel that Jesus was there at the beginning, where the others make no mention of it. I, of course, would not go so far as to say that this was an oversight by Mark, Matthew, and Luke, but I would say that it is something that the Holy Spirit inspired John to include in his Gospel.

I do think that each writer knew what the others before him had said. Moreover, as every writer knows, one writes to somebody. It is different to address the Jews or to address the gentiles, the greeks and romans. John, having seen what the first 3 said, has a much more theological Gospel, taking us into what the GoodNews were, the role of Jesus Christ in the History of Salvation, putting less attention to the details, already known.

Pfaffenhofen · Feb 10, 2012

Root of Jesse said:
Not in my experience, which actually has more Protestant experience than Catholic. In worship, a few lines or a short passage is read and preached on. Sometimes using a few other verses. Bible studies you speak of are separate from worship services.
My original statements was that we hear more of the Bible in worship than most Protestant Churches. Those parts we don't read are covered elsewhere, for example, Chronicles and Kings cover the same thing, the life of David. Also, those of us who pray the Divine Office get the entire Bible in liturgical worship.

But that's not how Catholics do Bible Study. We have a Magisterium that has authority to explain scripture.

I am dumbfounded. There is less Bible in Protestant Services? I am puzzled, for Protestant are always talking about the Bible as the sole guide in Faith!

Moreover I always thought that Protestant Ministers had more brilliant sermons than Catholic Priests, at least they shine more but seeing Joel Osteen, that I did not know, I think that it is too shining....

Maybe the Catholic Priests have more substance than shining polish...

athenken · Feb 10, 2012

Pfaffenhofen said:
I am dumbfounded. There is less Bible in Protestant Services? I am puzzled, for Protestant are always talking about the Bible as the sole guide in Faith!

Moreover I always thought that Protestant Ministers had more brilliant sermons than Catholic Priests, at least they shine more but seeing Joel Osteen, that I did not know, I think that it is too shining....

Maybe the Catholic Priests have more substance than shining polish...

This would depend on the denominations you are talking about. But when it comes to those like Joel Osteen, they only use the parts of the bible that inspire people and bring them money.

The more conservative denominations do have pastors that do prepare and deliver more meaty sermons where they dive pretty deep into scripture.

Pfaffenhofen · Feb 10, 2012

athenken said:
This would depend on the denominations you are talking about. But when it comes to those like Joel Osteen, they only use the parts of the bible that inspire people and bring them money.

The more conservative denominations do have pastors that do prepare and deliver more meaty sermons where they dive pretty deep into scripture.

well, well, well, as said in my country, scalded cat is afraid of cold water...

athenken · Feb 10, 2012

Pfaffenhofen said:
well, well, well, as said in my country, scalded cat is afraid of cold water...

That saying seems rather odd, as I would think the scalded cat would have bigger problems than dealing with cold water.

Just sayin'

Root of Jesse · Feb 10, 2012

Pfaffenhofen said:
I am dumbfounded. There is less Bible in Protestant Services? I am puzzled, for Protestant are always talking about the Bible as the sole guide in Faith!

Moreover I always thought that Protestant Ministers had more brilliant sermons than Catholic Priests, at least they shine more but seeing Joel Osteen, that I did not know, I think that it is too shining....

Maybe the Catholic Priests have more substance than shining polish...

The ones you see are the heavy weights. There's Catholics like that, too, Fr. Robert Barron and former priest John Corapi to name two. Fr. Wade Menezes, and all the Fathers of Mercy come to mind. Fr. Larry Richards, too. There's so many good priests. And to know that they usually pack into 15-20 minutes what it takes Billy Graham an hour to deliver!

Joel Osteen is very light on theology, IMO. But a good speaker. Lots of following. I've even volunteered for him at his local events. But his is a prosperity gospel.

Albion · Feb 10, 2012

Root of Jesse said:
Well, check out other's experiences. Ask the thousands that sit in on Joel Osteen services. How much of the Bible do they use in worship? How about Billy Graham revivals? Even Dr. Stanley doesn't sit there and read extensively from his Bible, though after the service there's a full-fledged Bible study going on. The point is, it's not just my experience.

The point is that they are not typical of Protestant churches, much as you''d like.

Root of Jesse · Feb 10, 2012

Albion said:
The point is that they are not typical of Protestant churches, much as you''d like.

So? The practice is typical. I know how pastors of Protestant Churches typically produce their sermons. The pick a topic, then find snippets of scripture to support their premise.

In Catholic Churches, and I'm sure to a different degree in others that use the Cycle, the preacher takes the scriptures, and apply them to our lives. It's completely done the other way. That doesn't say whether either way is more valid, it's just that Protestant pastors find their pet scripture snippets and use them over and over again.

Albion, you seem to think I'm critical of how you folks worship. I'm not. I've received great graces from listening to good preachers. But Protestant services, to me, are more about hymns and sermons than worshipping God. Mass is a very pure form of worship, by comparison, in my opinion. But, to each his own.

mantelofaprophet · Feb 10, 2012

I fear for any group of Christians whom have had a history of murdering others, whether they viewed them as heritics, or enemies of Christ. killing any human for their beliefs, is completely antichrist in faith and in following the commandments of Christ. why anyone would stay connected to such a body is beyond imagination

Pfaffenhofen · Feb 10, 2012

mantelofaprophet said:
I fear for any group of Christians whom have had a history of murdering others, whether they viewed them as heritics, or enemies of Christ. killing any human for their beliefs, is completely antichrist in faith and in following the commandments of Christ. why anyone would stay connected to such a body is beyond imagination

So, if an ancestor of mine from the 16th century was a murderer, I am a murderer too?

Albion · Feb 10, 2012

Root of Jesse said:
So? The practice is typical.

I said that it was not typical..and it's not.. I don't have time for footstomping, so when you have something new to add, we'll resume.

athenken · Feb 10, 2012

Pfaffenhofen said:
So, if an ancestor of mine from the 16th century was a murderer, I am a murderer too?

You would know better than we would. Have you killed anyone lately?

Albion · Feb 10, 2012

athenken said:
You would know better than we would. Have you killed anyone lately?

Jesus said that if we so much as look upon another person with lust in our hearts we have committed adultery, so it would be reasonable to think that if anyone willingly adopts a group that is guilty of engaging in persistent and serious sin, he takes it upon himself too.

whitetiger1 · Feb 10, 2012

Pfaffenhofen said:
I am dumbfounded. There is less Bible in Protestant Services? I am puzzled, for Protestant are always talking about the Bible as the sole guide in Faith!

As said it depends on what Church on goes to. In most you have Sunday School which teach Lessons from the Bible, than everyone meets in Church for the exposition from the Word. Then in the Church or peoples homes there are various Bible studies during the week and most Churches have services on Wednesday from the Bible. All in all Protestants do have a greater knowledge of the Bible than your average Joe Catholic.

Pfaffenhofen said:
Moreover I always thought that Protestant Ministers had more brilliant sermons than Catholic Priests, at least they shine more but seeing Joel Osteen, that I did not know, I think that it is too shining....

From my experience Protestant Ministers do have more brilliant sermons, there again it does depend. Osteen I would not even consider in the same category with many Pastors like Dr. Stanley, who expounds from the word and we watch him every Sunday. My favorite was D. James Kennedy.

Pfaffenhofen said:
Maybe the Catholic Priests have more substance than shining polish...

I can say that since I converted over 15 years ago there have only been a handful of really good sermon giving Priest in my experience

athenken · Feb 10, 2012

Albion said:
Jesus said that if we so much as look upon another person with lust in our hearts we have committed adultery, so it would be reasonable to think that if anyone willingly adopts a group that is guilty of engaging in persistent and serious sin, he takes it upon himself too.

Granted, however, He has also afforded us the opportunity of forgiveness.

The real difference is even though the thought may have entered your mind have you acted on it at all? Has it changed your heart? Or do you stop and repent and ask forgiveness for the sin?

whitetiger1 · Feb 10, 2012

mantelofaprophet said:
I fear for any group of Christians whom have had a history of murdering others, whether they viewed them as heritics, or enemies of Christ. killing any human for their beliefs, is completely antichrist in faith and in following the commandments of Christ. why anyone would stay connected to such a body is beyond imagination

So how's that work for you because every group has done that at one time or another. Just because someone belongs to a Christian group be it Anglican, Catholic, Presbyterian etc does not mean we are responsible for what those ancestors did.

Albion · Feb 10, 2012

athenken said:
The real difference is even though the thought may have entered your mind have you acted on it at all? Has it changed your heart? Or do you stop and repent and ask forgiveness for the sin?

Is that a difference? Jesus didn't say that if you look upon a woman with lust in your heart it doesn't count as adultery unless you actually do the deed, unless, as you sai, "you acted on it at all." If you ask forgiveness and repent, of course he is merciful to forgive.

whitetiger1 · Feb 10, 2012

Was the Reformation an Experiment gone wrong?

I was thinking today that because of the Reformation we got America, so I don't think it was a failure

Was the Reformation an Experiment gone wrong?

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