Was she baptized?

[SumTinWong]

Just out of curiosity sake do we have any record that Mary was ever baptized?

Somone said that she was under the old covenant, and did not need to be baptized. Everybody else during that time period needed to be baptized, why not her?

Just throwing that out there...

 

[ZiSunka]

I can't find any record in the Bible that she was baptized. But I can't find any record that Peter, Andrew, Matthew or John were baptized either. The Bible isn't the story of Mary, it is the story of Christ, so it just doesn't record everything about her or everything she did. And baptism was not an ordinance until the after the resurrection. Before that, it was just a ceremony. Not much is mentioned of Mary after the ascension of Christ. She might have been, or might not.

 

[BT]

I agree with LL. There is no record of the baptism of the Apostles or Mary. However based on the great commission and the baptisms at the hands of Peter and the other Apostles, and the importance that they place upon it. I would say that she was baptised. However that is kind of an argument from silence, which I don't like to use.

The over riding idea is... who cares.

 

[BT]

umm besides Uncle Bud in this post that is.

 

[SumTinWong]

Well the point would be if she was baptized and some believe that baptism is for the remission of sins, would that not prove she had sin to befin with? I know we view it as a symbol of the death burial and resurrection of Jesus. But to some view it is a gateway to salvation, and it removes sin from us.

I know there is an arguement from silence in here, but I had to bring it up as it intrigued me.

 

[ZiSunka]

Hmm, a flaw with that concept would be, though, that baptism somehow remitts sin, which it doesn't. It's a ceremony, not a magic trick. It symbolizes burial and rebirth as a new person in Christ, but it's the saving faith in Christ that precedes the baptism that remits sin.

Let me check newadvent.com and see what catholicism teaches about it.

 

[ZiSunka]

"The immunity from original sin was given to Mary by a singular exemption from a universal law through the same merits of Christ, by which other men are cleansed from sin by baptism. Mary needed the redeeming Saviour to obtain this exemption, and to be delivered from the universal necessity and debt (debitum) of being subject to original sin. The person of Mary, in consequence of her origin from Adam, should have been subject to sin, but, being the new Eve who was to be the mother of the new Adam, she was, by the eternal counsel of God and by the merits of Christ, withdrawn from the general law of original sin. Her redemption was the very masterpiece of Christ's redeeming wisdom. He is a greater redeemer who pays the debt that it may not be incurred than he who pays after it has fallen on the debtor.

Such is the meaning of the term "Immaculate Conception."

From the texts Proverbs 8 and Ecclesiasticus 24 (which exalt the Wisdom of God and which in the liturgy are applied to Mary, the most beautiful work of God's Wisdom), or from the Canticle of Canticles (4:7, "Thou art all fair, O my love, and there is not a spot in thee"), no theological conclusion can be drawn. These passages, applied to the Mother of God, may be readily understood by those who know the privilege of Mary, but do not avail to prove the doctrine dogmatically, and are therefore omitted from the Constitution "Ineffabilis Deus". For the theologian it is a matter of conscience not to take an extreme position by applying to a creature texts which might imply the prerogatives of God."

Nope, it doesn't appear that catholicism has any news on Mary's baptism. But they do view her as being exempt from "original sin," which is the primary sin which is cleansed in catholic baptism, and they view her as being the spotless woman mentioned in Song of Solomon, thus baptism would probably not be required to remit sin.

St Thomas Aquinus, however, wrote in Summa Theologica that he doubted that Mary was eternally sinless, since she was redeemed by Christ, and a sinless person has nothing to be redeemed from. Summa III:27:2, ad 2

 

[SumTinWong]

Also if you notice LL: "by which other men are cleansed from sin by baptism." So they think that Baptism does cleanse us from sin but Mary was supposedly saved before the birth of Christ. So it must be thier position that she wasn't baptized. Interesting to say the least.

 

[ZiSunka]

Ah! but if you see, Mary was redeemed from something, it says so right in Summa Theologica, the most comprehensive treatise on catholic theology, and St Thomas Aquinus doubts that she could be sinless, because the sinless don't need redemption.

It doesn't say that Mary was saved before the birth of Christ, it says she was sinless before the birth of Christ, implying that she could not have been saved, since only the perishing can be saved. They believe that she was sinless before the birth, but must have had something to be saved from, so she must have sinned, ever so slightly, after the birth.

"Mary, the most holy Mother of God, by virtue of the foreseen merits of Christ, our Lord and Redeemer, was never subject to original sin, but was completely preserved from the original taint, and hence she was redeemed in a manner more sublime." Ineffabilis Deus

I can't find out what this more sublime manner was, however.
"Mary needed the redeeming Saviour" why would she need the redeeming savior if not to redeem her from her own sins, if she was indeed exempt from original sin?

 

[SumTinWong]

From what I understand her redemption was a pre-emptive strike. God apparently spared her from the sins she might have committed before her birth contingent on the sacrifice He made on the cross. According to the people who believe this her redemption was granted to her because God knew she was going to give birth to Jesus.

At least that is my understanding.

 

[Diakoneo]

Somone said that she was under the old covenant, and did not need to be baptized. Everybody else during that time period needed to be baptized, why not her?

Just throwing that out there...

That is an interesting notion. However I think it is rather weak. You could say that she was under the Old Covenant, since there was no new covenant. However all that changed. I mean we understand that baptism does not cleanse from sin but is symbolic, that is a fact.

Here's the proof of that:

Hebrews 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

I don't think that in the Baptist forum (or any other Christian only forum here) I have to prove that Christ was perfect and sinless but the above is one example of this truth. So if we take this starting point that Christ was sinless... and look at another verse:

Matthew 3:13 Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him.

Why in the world would Christ need to be cleansed from sin if that was indeed the nature of baptism? It isn't. So regardless of which covenant she was under whether or not she was baptized does not really matter.

 

[Diakoneo]

Also if you notice LL: "by which other men are cleansed from sin by baptism." So they think that Baptism does cleanse us from sin but Mary was supposedly saved before the birth of Christ. So it must be thier position that she wasn't baptized. Interesting to say the least.

It is an interesting notion but I don't think we need to worry about proving that Mary was a sinner by whether or not she was baptised. The Bible should hold enough evidence in and of itself.

Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

(death passed upon all, including Mary)

Romans 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

(not one includes Mary)

And again against the concept of co-redemptrix:

Romans 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Romans 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

 

[Mary of Bethany]

unclebud,

come ask this over on TAW. I'd be curious to know this, too, and I've never heard her baptism mentioned, even as a "tradition", but I'm pretty new to Orthodoxy. I just figure that if anyone knows of an extra-biblical source, it would be an Orthodox.

Mary

 

[SumTinWong]

Will do Mary