Was Satan once a good guy?

TSIBHOD · Jul 1, 2004

hotmetal said:
So what youre saying is, "God created Lucifer Evil."

I do not say that God created "Lucifer" evil. "Lucifer," whoever that is, was created as an originally good being who fell. The only reason people think that Satan is Lucifer is because they already believe about Satan what the Bible says about Lucifer. If you look at Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28, there is no telltale evidence that they refer to Satan, unless you have the assumption that Satan was good and holy, and that he fell from that state.

nephilimiyr said:
Those John passages refer to the Devil and Satan who is the same being but because of his fallen nature his names have changed. Just like God Satan has many names and all you are seeing is the reference to the same being but only with a different name attached.

You say that Satan had a name change, so those verses do not refer to him when he was not "Satan." That is an assumption. Can you back it up? How do you know that Satan had a name change? I know that you believe Satan was Lucifer, but your reasoning is circular if you use the assumption that Satan=Lucifer to prove that Satan was not created evil, and you use the assumption that Satan was not created evil to prove that Satan=Lucifer.

JVAC said:
What has the Church always taught?

The church has taught for a long time contrary to what I am teaching. But the Bible would seem to indicate that the apostle John disagrees with church history on this matter.

herev said:
John 1:1, here, under high christology that reigned at the time of the writing, in the beginning could have meant the beginnin of th earth, but could be the beginning of everything--but if it means the beginning of everything--again, it suggests that there was a beginning of God.
When it is used in 1 JOhn, I guess it could be interpreted the way you suggests, but since it doesn't say either way, we must make a choice. YOu have expressed what makes sense to you, but that is not what makes sense to me.

"From the beginning" naturally indicates from Satan's own beginning. That is just the natural assumption. If it was from another beginning, the Bible should have said so.

For example, when Jesus says, "Just as I have told you from the beginning," He means that ever since He told them anything (the beginning of the telling), He told them that, and has not changed His stance.

When the Bible speaks of Satan's nature, and the beginning, the natural assumption is that it is speaking of the beginning of Satan's nature.

You also asked some questions about "Lucifer," but I do not believe that Satan is Lucifer.

verismo · Jul 1, 2004

JVAC said:
I think we just need to ask ourselves:

"What has the Church always taught?"

-James

The Church teaches that Satan was at first a good angel, made by God: "The devil and the other demons were indeed created naturally good by God, but they became evil by their own doing"(Lateran Council IV-1215: DS 800)

Lynn73 · Jul 1, 2004

Job 38:4-7

Click to expand...

4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast F214 understanding. 5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it? 6 Whereupon are the foundations F215 thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof; 7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

This seems to indicate to me that at one time there was total harmony in heaven which would indicate even Lucifer was perfect.

Ezekiel 28:11-15 11 Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, 12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty. 13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, F136 topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created. 14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. 15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

Many believe this to be talking about Satan or Lucifer. Earlier in the chapter a prince of Tyre or Tyrus is mentioned, now this is talking about a king of Tyre. Look at what it says... who else could it be describing? Who could have been the annointed cherub that covereth? Every precious stone as his covering? I believe he was once perfect and sinless until "iniquity was found in him." He saw his beauty and pride began to fill his heart. He wanted to be God: "I will be like the most high."

verismo · Jul 1, 2004

monty804 said:
"3. God creates beings with their own nature, and will. So Satan chose evil rather than God."

thanks for making my conclusion

"And if God didn't create evil...who did?"

did God "create" darkness, or is it just the abscence of light, just as maybe evil is the abscence of good? i think i read that somewhere?

I made your conclusion? What is it?

Yeah, evil: the opposite of Good. So, God created Good, but gave us free will, so we can chose against good, which is ipso facto evil.

So, in the way that The Law created sin, God created Evil i.e. without the Law there is no sin, so Without God there is no Evil; but God is never the cause of Evil. So in that way, Satan/Adam created evil.

hmmm.

verismo · Jul 1, 2004

Lucifer:
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09410a.htm

HoT-MetaL · Jul 1, 2004

Youre saying that Satan is inherently evil.

Why would God create something inherently evil?

Satan is NOT God's equal. God is the winner, he defeated Satan at the cross.

Satan is a created being. God created him. God cannot create evil.

God Bless, metal.

statrei · Jul 1, 2004

TSIBHOD said:
The popular Christian belief is that Satan was once a holy angel. However, if you read the Bible plainly, you find otherwise:

John 8:44Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
1 John 3:8He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

Popular Christian belief: Satan was holy in the beginning.
Bible belief: Satan sinned from the beginning.

The easiest interpretation is that Satan was created as a murderer and sinner. I will first note that most of the time, when people argue against the plainest and easiest interpretation, it is just because they do not want to believe what the Bible really teaches.

Actually, if you do not assume that "the beginning" refers to the same moment in both instances you would not find yourself with a doctrine that essentially conflicts with a more certain biblical teaching that God is just. It would be unjust for God to create a being as a murderer then punish him for being true to his nature.

"In the beginning was the Word. . . . All things were made by Him." According to your logic Satan was not created for He would have to be in the beginning with his Creator. It is much better to ask what our beliefs say about the Creator than to simply settle on what "can be explained."

TSIBHOD · Jul 1, 2004

Okay, I've seen some people say that "most people think Satan was Lucifer," or "Church history says that Satan was Lucifer." You need to realize that just because most people believe something does not make it right. Truth is not decided by a majority vote. Ultimately, we have to figure out what God says in this matter. I know that many people who knew God well thought that Satan was Lucifer, but I disagree with them. The Church Fathers are not infallible.

It may be okay to believe that Ezekiel 28 and Isaiah 14 apply to Satan if that does not contradict other scripture. But whether it contradicts other scripture depends on our interpretation of John 8:44 and I John 3:8. So let's continue to look at those two verses, and the phrase "from the beginning." Can the phrase "from the beginning" mean from the beginning of the world, instead of the beginning of the subject? If so, please say why? If you think that this interpretation is necessary because you already believe it, that is circular reasoning again.

TSIBHOD · Jul 1, 2004

hotmetal said:
Satan is a created being. God created him. God cannot create evil.

God created the liar, not the lie. If you argue that God would not create Satan originally evil, because that would be against His nature, then I have a question for you.

If God creates a being that He knows is going to become evil, would that not be the same thing as creating one evil in the first place?

verismo · Jul 1, 2004

hotmetal said:
Youre saying that Satan is inherently evil.

Why would God create something inherently evil?

Satan is NOT God's equal. God is the winner, he defeated Satan at the cross.

Satan is a created being. God created him. God cannot create evil.

God Bless, metal.

Was that to me? I am confused...we need quotes here folks.

@@Paul@@ · Jul 1, 2004

TSIBHOD said:
If God creates a being that He knows is going to become evil, would that not be the same thing as creating one evil in the first place?

No it's not... We choose to be evil, We are not created that way.

HoT-MetaL · Jul 1, 2004

verismo, nope not to you

TSIBHO... God did NOT create a Liar. He created an Angel, whos sin became death.

First of all John 8:44 does refer to the Devil... i agree. But how do we define 'the beginning' without asking Jesus himself. It says that the Devil is a liar from the beginning, yes. But does this mean when the Angel had become the Devil? Or does it mean when the Devil was an Angel? Or does it mean when the Devil was created?

The original greek is Arche. Now this can mean the first prinicipality: A devil, or an angel. This could mean from the start. This could mean the active cause.

Too many holes in your argument. Too flawed. What people agree with as the truth, makes perfect sense.

God Bless, metal

TSIBHOD · Jul 1, 2004

@@Paul@@ said:
No it's not... We choose to be evil, We are not created that way.

I don't think you understood my point. Some argue that it is against God's nature to create an evil being, because apparently, they think that to create an evil being is to be an evil being. If God, however, created a being that He knew would become evil, does that not make Him evil then by those standards? It would seem that God can indeed create a being that He knows will become evil without being evil Himself. So why can He not create a being that is evil "from the beginning," and still not be evil Himself?

TSIBHOD · Jul 1, 2004

hotmetal,

The meaning of "principality" that you mentioned is a rabbit track. The Greek word has that meaning only in rare contexts, as you will see if you consult a lexicon. The fact that translations like the NIV, NASB, ESV, NKJV, etc. all agree should tell you that in this verse, it needs the translation "beginning." The only dispute is the question, "Which beginning?" I say that contextually, the most natural beginning to be assumed is Satan's beginning. This makes sense with the rest of what Jesus says in that verse, and I quote from the ESV: "He was a murderer from the beginning, and has nothing to do with the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar, and the father of lie." (emphasis mine) Jesus says that Satan's very character (or nature) is lying.

Michael713 · Jul 1, 2004

@@Paul@@ said:
No it's not... We choose to be evil, We are not created that way.

i agree, that is why we are innocent before our leaving the womb, and until "someone causes us to sin" as Jesus taught his disciples. Children are born innocent and sinless.......but everyone sins when they get older......

twolvesballer · Jul 1, 2004

Satan was not always bad, because here is a quote in Luke, where Jesus sent his diciples out.

Luke 10

17The seventy-two returned with joy and said, "Lord, even the demons submit to us in your name."
18He replied, "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven. 19I have given you authority to trample on snakes and scorpions and to overcome all the power of the enemy; nothing will harm you.

Click to expand...

monty804 · Jul 1, 2004

verismo said:
So, in the way that The Law created sin, God created Evil i.e. without the Law there is no sin, so Without God there is no Evil; but God is never the cause of Evil. So in that way, Satan/Adam created evil.

hmmm.

the law did not create sin, it created transgression, which is different from sin. all transgression is sin, but not all sin is transgression. when cain killed able he sinned, even though the law had not been given at that time.

verismo · Jul 1, 2004

monty804 said:
the law did not create sin, it created transgression, which is different from sin. all transgression is sin, but not all sin is transgression. when cain killed able he sinned, even though the law had not been given at that time.

Rom 7:7...if it had not been for the law, I should not have known sin.

Well, I am not into the semantics of all this, but this verse is the idea to which I was referring.

Faith In God · Jul 1, 2004

The law does not create sin, but exposes sin.

verismo · Jul 1, 2004

Oy.

Ok, like I said, I meant in the "apart from the Law, Sin is dead" way.

Create...wrong word.

The Law gives Sin its power.

Was Satan once a good guy?

I believe that...

Satan was a holy angel in the beginning.

"He [Satan] was a murderer from the beginning."

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